yaku contest:kana vs koromo

[or2az]

I was still having a problem with that open kong rinshan kaihou thing that led Saki to victory so I went back and watched it a third time. I was stunned to see that she did it all on one turn. Each supplemental tile she drew was used for another kong until she had 3 of them and the final supplemental tile was the rinshan kaihou for the win, all on the same turn! (that's unbelievable!). It is now, even as an optional rule, starting to make some sense to me.
It follows that I now have to disagree with the statement below. I don't believe it is correct. You can't be fully responsible for discarding a tile that someone calls for an open kong on the 4th turn if they later end up winning on a rinshan kaihou on the 10th turn.

If Saki had to stop and wait another turn to keep doing Kans, Kakan/Shominkan, Ankan, or whatever, Koromo would still been responsible.

[Ignatius]

As I've read on japanese Wikipedia, it's correct. You can do a Daiminkan with this optional rule on play. And if you don't win with the replacement tile of the Daiminkan, as long as you end winning with a Rinshan, the one who allowed the Daiminkan will be responsible for it.

If you apply the Sekinin Barai, for example, with Dai San Gen, nobody expect for you to win automatically within the next draw since you've declared the third dragon... It could take you a few turns, doesn't it?

Probably this is the logic applied here. Maybe I'm wrong.

Also I did read again the japanese Wikipedia. Just to be sure.

Keep in mind that if you don't win with Rinshan from the replacement tile of the Daiminkan, it's easy to end in furiten if you try to pull this off. If you draw your winning tile from a normal tsumo the Sekinin Barai does not apply... If you ron the tile, the same.

[or2az]

You may be right. This is from Bart's guide. Look at the last sentence. The person that claimed the dragon doesn't necessarily have to win the hand which I assume means the win doesn't have to happen immediately.
(I still don't like it in it's application to open kongs and rinshan kaihou. It's too common an occurrence. It happened to you in that tenhou game except you didn't go on to win)

The rule of Sekinin Harai (literally "liability payment"), also known as Pao, can be applied to
either Dai San Gen (Big Three Dragons) or Dai Sū Shii (Big Four Winds) and penalises a player
for discarding a tile which is taken by an opponent to complete the final required set for the limit
hand but only in cases where all the other sets needed are already complete and exposed (so
the opponent's potential for making the Yakuman is quite evident).
If a player has two exposed Pungs of dragon tiles and another player discards the tile that lets
them make the third set for Dai San Gen, or if a player has three Pungs of wind tiles exposed
and someone discards the tile that lets them complete the fourth for Dai Sū Shii, then the
discarding player has to pay. If the hand is won by Tsumo the discarding player pays the full
amount or if the hand is won by Ron from a third player then the two discarders pay half each.

[Ignatius]

As I edited on the previous post. Because I'm an overprecise maniac:

Keep in mind that if you don't win with Rinshan from the replacement tile of the Daiminkan, it's easy to end in furiten if you try to pull this off. If you draw your winning tile from a normal tsumo the Sekinin Barai does not apply... If you ron the tile, the same.

So in the end, you're very limited if you don't pull off the Daiminkan followed Rinshan on it's replacement tile. It's not so easy to do two kans.

[Iapetus]

I've never heard your interpretation of Rinshan Pao before, Ignatius. I can't directly disprove it, but I can demonstrate why it probably is wrong.

What if a player calls daiminkans from multiple players, then wins by rinshan? Who pays what?

That alone makes it unlikely that the pao extends past the turn the kan is called on.

[Referee]

Yeah, I agree with it only lasting for the replacement of that daiminkan, or if you're playing against Saki, the chain of kans that are bound to follow. (Mou Ikko! Kan!)

As I heard, you are also excluded from pao if you go into riichi before the second-to-last set is revealed (second dragon, or third wind).

[Ignatius]

Well I only wrote what I've read. Maybe someone who knows more than me about this rule could explain it better. I thought it was Ok. Probably if there are more than one Daiminkan, the last one gets affected. As when you claim all 3 dragons of a Dai San Gen. The last one is who have to pay.

[Barticle]

I got this nice hand today and it got me thinking.
What is the maximum number of different yaku that can exist in a winning hand?
This one has 7.

My next game - currently in the post - has a trophy for making a winning hand with seven yaku. I hope I share your good fortune...!

I'm not sure Bart made that clear enough in the guide. That kan rule is on p.29 under rinshan kaihou and the optional pao rule things are on p.35.
I'm not complaining, just observing.

Primarily the pao rule pertains to the yakuman cases; also I tried to avoid duplication and to include details in the most relevant section only (the entry for pao is at the end of the section about yakuman).

I might just add a brief cross-reference from p35 to p29, although the page numbers might change slightly on the next revision.

Bart's guide lists all 4 of these terms. Are all of these methods and terms interchangeable and basically acceptable?
役牌 [yakuhai] / 飜牌 / 翻牌 [fanpai] / 風牌 [kazehai]

Bart's guide also defines these terms - separately - in the three sentences that follow.

[Ignatius]

Well, I've re-read again what was written on the japanese Wikipedia about the Daiminkan no Pao 大明槓の包.

And it's says that when you don't win on Rinshan Tsumo just before the Daiminkan it's not clear what should have to be done.
The Wikipedia says that there's an example of what I've said: If you don't win on that Daiminkan replacement, as long as you win on a Rinshan later, it's accepted. But this example is from a manga.

But it is recognised in Ron2, by example, the possibility of a chain of Kans to accomplish this optional rule. Like Saki did, that was truly amazing.

Probably the best solution it's to just accept the Daiminkan no Pao only when you do the Daiminkan, in that exact moment, so if you fail to obtain a Rinshan the Pao gets nullified.

It's the easiest way.


Still, it's unclear what will happen if it´s allowed do a Daiminkan, not obtain the Rinshan, and a few turns later, if you do a Kan and win by Rinshan, you get the Rinshan and thus it's considered to be accepted under the Sekinin Barai rule.

I hope I made myself clear enough.

[Barticle]

I'm reminded of the Chinese classical rules which include the limit-hand Kong Upon Kong (or Twofold Fortune) which is awarded for making a kong, using the supplement tile to declare a second kong and then using the second supplement tile to declare a win. Saki should try playing CC rules for money!

[or2az]

While we're on the topic of Saki's rinshan kaihou, I thought I would share this for those that have not seen it before.
"The Most Epic Hand in the 71st Nagano Tournament".
That twofold fortune thing is mentioned here and the comments are rather interesting, too.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... GE&cad=rja