Furiten question
Moderator: Shirluban
Re: Furiten question
ok, first hand of the game, I'm west, tenpai, waiting on the . (really only the , since the hand is open)
South discards the , I claim it for the win, and then, FURITEN.
Can't figure out why. (There was a 1-crack discard, but not by me. South claimed it from East.)
What am I missing here?
South discards the , I claim it for the win, and then, FURITEN.
Can't figure out why. (There was a 1-crack discard, but not by me. South claimed it from East.)
What am I missing here?
- Attachments
-
- image.jpg (224.91 KiB) Viewed 12631 times
-
- image.jpg (12.17 KiB) Viewed 12631 times
Last edited by or2az on Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Ignatius
- Silver Boarder
- Posts: 649
- Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:54 pm
- Location: (From Spain) In Ireland (EU) since 2016, so lazy I didn´t update this until 2019... (私は初心者だし、よろしく)
Re: Furiten question
The player of you left took from you to do a chii call, wich means you discarded it. As furiten aplies on all waiting tiles and , when you tried to pick up you could´nt because you dropped before a , one of your waiting tiles.
Life is as beautiful as you want it to be, but it´s only one. That´s why you must not get tired of it. Don´t care if you don´t say something that seems "important" because your mere existence is important for someone.
Re: Furiten question
I don't think that's the case. The player on my left can only chi from the player on his left. That's why the tile is turned sideways on the left side of the chow. (I'm sure you know that, you must have been preoccupied)
As stated above, South claimed the tile from East, not from me (West). Gotta be another reason for the furiten.
As stated above, South claimed the tile from East, not from me (West). Gotta be another reason for the furiten.
-
- Senior Reacher
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:42 am
- Location: The frozen part of HELL!
Re: Furiten question
The only logical conclusion I can come up wtih given the information presented, is that you were not playing ari-ari mahjong. And we can't prove it with only that screenshot. Tenhou lets us see the game rule in the top-right. To be quite honest, I don't even know what game this is from.
It's not ryanhan-shibari, nor riichi (East 1, no repeats, there was a call made).
AFAIK, there are two options:
1 is nashi-nashi mahjong (no kuitan, no atozuke), and open tanyao was probably not part of the ruleset.
2 is "ari-nashi" mahjong, where even if kuitan was allowed, the atozuke bit refers to being able to just tack on a yaku to win. Its reverse, sakizuke, would require all your outs to have yaku. There is a crazier option called "kanzen sakizuke", but I'm not going to go there.
Technically, there is also a third option, but I sincerely hope that this isn't the case.
EDIT: The third option was a bit of a snide comment, but there is one other thing. If South called 1m, then North called South's 7p, you would still be furiten until you had a turn of your own. This is exactly what I was talking about in this thread 4 years ago, but I have to thank Yazphier for figuring it out. I dismissed the possibility myself, but it is in fact possible. Next time, send us a tenhou log, we can diagnose such problems in seconds.
It's not ryanhan-shibari, nor riichi (East 1, no repeats, there was a call made).
AFAIK, there are two options:
1 is nashi-nashi mahjong (no kuitan, no atozuke), and open tanyao was probably not part of the ruleset.
2 is "ari-nashi" mahjong, where even if kuitan was allowed, the atozuke bit refers to being able to just tack on a yaku to win. Its reverse, sakizuke, would require all your outs to have yaku. There is a crazier option called "kanzen sakizuke", but I'm not going to go there.
Technically, there is also a third option, but I sincerely hope that this isn't the case.
EDIT: The third option was a bit of a snide comment, but there is one other thing. If South called 1m, then North called South's 7p, you would still be furiten until you had a turn of your own. This is exactly what I was talking about in this thread 4 years ago, but I have to thank Yazphier for figuring it out. I dismissed the possibility myself, but it is in fact possible. Next time, send us a tenhou log, we can diagnose such problems in seconds.
Last edited by Senechal on Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Furiten question
The game is IOS professional mahjong kiwame
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=53059
Kuitan allowed, Atozuke allowed. (ari-ari).....also, kuikae not allowed.
ok, I'm afraid to ask, but you got me curious, what's the third option, a glitch?
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=53059
Kuitan allowed, Atozuke allowed. (ari-ari).....also, kuikae not allowed.
ok, I'm afraid to ask, but you got me curious, what's the third option, a glitch?
Last edited by or2az on Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
-
- Senior Reacher
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:42 am
- Location: The frozen part of HELL!
Re: Furiten question
It could have been trolling. My apologies, I had a bit of a trolling experience on the receiving end earlier in the day. Didn't mean to transpose the situation, despite the possibility of such genuinely existing.
New newer edit: there is a fifth option, again from Yazphier. If the game allows kuikae (switch calling), if East drops 1m, if it's allowed, South could call 1m and drop 4m. That seems like the more logical explanation, and yes, you would be furiten at that point. Assuming you got to play right after that, that is your explanation.
New newer edit: there is a fifth option, again from Yazphier. If the game allows kuikae (switch calling), if East drops 1m, if it's allowed, South could call 1m and drop 4m. That seems like the more logical explanation, and yes, you would be furiten at that point. Assuming you got to play right after that, that is your explanation.
- Ignatius
- Silver Boarder
- Posts: 649
- Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:54 pm
- Location: (From Spain) In Ireland (EU) since 2016, so lazy I didn´t update this until 2019... (私は初心者だし、よろしく)
Re: Furiten question
Yeah, you're right. This thing looks complex, with ari-ari, ari-nashi, kuikae and sakizuke rules...or2az wrote:I don't think that's the case. The player on my left can only chi from the player on his left. That's why the tile is turned sideways on the left side of the chow. (I'm sure you know that, you must have been preoccupied)
As stated above, South claimed the tile from East, not from me (West). Gotta be another reason for the furiten.
Last edited by Ignatius on Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Life is as beautiful as you want it to be, but it´s only one. That´s why you must not get tired of it. Don´t care if you don´t say something that seems "important" because your mere existence is important for someone.
Re: Furiten question
That would make sense. East tosses the 1m. I can't take it. South claims it and switches it (kuikae) for the 4m. I now can't claim the 4m until my next turn. Hence, temporary furiten.
Except for one thing, Kuikae is definitely not allowed. Back to square one.
(what is trolling,aside from its usage on the water when fishing?)
Except for one thing, Kuikae is definitely not allowed. Back to square one.
(what is trolling,aside from its usage on the water when fishing?)
Last edited by or2az on Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Ignatius
- Silver Boarder
- Posts: 649
- Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:54 pm
- Location: (From Spain) In Ireland (EU) since 2016, so lazy I didn´t update this until 2019... (私は初心者だし、よろしく)
Re: Furiten question
That's a little twisted. That's why I'm sometimes confused with temporary furiten, because of situations like this...
Life is as beautiful as you want it to be, but it´s only one. That´s why you must not get tired of it. Don´t care if you don´t say something that seems "important" because your mere existence is important for someone.
Re: Furiten question
My thought was kuikae as well, but if that's not allowed then I can only assume a bug is the cause.
As for trolling: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trolling the second definition is actually the better one. But in short it's doing something (usually on the internet) to deliberately piss someone off, or just get a reaction. Eg posting a purposefully unpopular or incorrect statement purely to get people to reply.
As for trolling: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trolling the second definition is actually the better one. But in short it's doing something (usually on the internet) to deliberately piss someone off, or just get a reaction. Eg posting a purposefully unpopular or incorrect statement purely to get people to reply.
"Furiten is the most holiest!" - Garthe Nelson
Online Ranks
Tenhou Rating: Ozball - 1608 - 2nd dan
Old Ranks
MFC: オズボール - Seiryu (Blue Dragon) Master
MFC JPML Rank: 3rd kyu
Ron2 Rating: Ozball - 1335 League: Bronze
Online Ranks
Tenhou Rating: Ozball - 1608 - 2nd dan
Old Ranks
MFC: オズボール - Seiryu (Blue Dragon) Master
MFC JPML Rank: 3rd kyu
Ron2 Rating: Ozball - 1335 League: Bronze
Re: Furiten question
With kuikae nashi (pretty standard) it can only be like this. Or2az, can you confirm this is the case?
Go-around 11
Oya discards 1m (You can't call because no yaku, so temporary furiten)
South calls Chi and discards 7p
North calls Pon (skipping your turn and thus you can't get out of temporary furiten)
North discards 8s
Go-around 12
Oya discards Hatsu
South discards 4m
Temporary furiten is still in effect and thus you cannot call. That is the risk of opening your hand without a guaranteed yaku.
Go-around 11
Oya discards 1m (You can't call because no yaku, so temporary furiten)
South calls Chi and discards 7p
North calls Pon (skipping your turn and thus you can't get out of temporary furiten)
North discards 8s
Go-around 12
Oya discards Hatsu
South discards 4m
Temporary furiten is still in effect and thus you cannot call. That is the risk of opening your hand without a guaranteed yaku.
Re: Furiten question
Actually yes, this. I hadn't thought of this but it's definitely a legal possibility rule wise.Referee wrote:With kuikae nashi (pretty standard) it can only be like this. Or2az, can you confirm this is the case?
Go-around 11
Oya discards 1m (You can't call because no yaku, so temporary furiten)
South calls Chi and discards 7p
North calls Pon (skipping your turn and thus you can't get out of temporary furiten)
North discards 8s
Go-around 12
Oya discards Hatsu
South discards 4m
Temporary furiten is still in effect and thus you cannot call. That is the risk of opening your hand without a guaranteed yaku.
"Furiten is the most holiest!" - Garthe Nelson
Online Ranks
Tenhou Rating: Ozball - 1608 - 2nd dan
Old Ranks
MFC: オズボール - Seiryu (Blue Dragon) Master
MFC JPML Rank: 3rd kyu
Ron2 Rating: Ozball - 1335 League: Bronze
Online Ranks
Tenhou Rating: Ozball - 1608 - 2nd dan
Old Ranks
MFC: オズボール - Seiryu (Blue Dragon) Master
MFC JPML Rank: 3rd kyu
Ron2 Rating: Ozball - 1335 League: Bronze
Re: Furiten question
Excellent explanation! That has to be what happened.
I have read this entire thread over again and the theoretical answer was there, a few times, back in 2010, and in todays posts too. I just wasn't able to put the sequence of events together in a step by step process so that it made logical sense. You did it very nicely.
I've been in this situation before (this thread, 3/2/14) but without the pong calling in the middle of it and that made it very difficult to see because of the skipped turn. This happens really fast in a video game and you don't pay much attention to it. Good job, Referee, you have increased my level of thinking by one notch. And thanks to everyone else for their input.
I have read this entire thread over again and the theoretical answer was there, a few times, back in 2010, and in todays posts too. I just wasn't able to put the sequence of events together in a step by step process so that it made logical sense. You did it very nicely.
I've been in this situation before (this thread, 3/2/14) but without the pong calling in the middle of it and that made it very difficult to see because of the skipped turn. This happens really fast in a video game and you don't pay much attention to it. Good job, Referee, you have increased my level of thinking by one notch. And thanks to everyone else for their input.
Re: Furiten question
Understanding of temporary fruiten(同巡内フリテン), just only 2 rules you remember.
1. You do Tsumo
or
2. Open(pon/kan/chi) by yourself
Then it is gone. that's it. there are no exception.
"Genbutsu kuikae(exchange same tile)" and "Suji kuikae". Standard one is both are not allowed. but sometimes "Genbutsu kuikae" only not allowed.
1. You do Tsumo
or
2. Open(pon/kan/chi) by yourself
Then it is gone. that's it. there are no exception.
"Pretty standard" is important word. "Kukae nashi" includes 2 things.Ozball wrote:With kuikae nashi (pretty standard) it can only be like this. Or2az, can you confirm this is the case?
"Genbutsu kuikae(exchange same tile)" and "Suji kuikae". Standard one is both are not allowed. but sometimes "Genbutsu kuikae" only not allowed.
Re: Furiten question
Oh really? Fair enough! I've never heard of Genbutsu before. I guess you learn something new everdayMasa wrote:Understanding of temporary fruiten(同巡内フリテン), just only 2 rules you remember.
1. You do Tsumo
or
2. Open(pon/kan/chi) by yourself
Then it is gone. that's it. there are no exception.
"Pretty standard" is important word. "Kukae nashi" includes 2 things.Ozball wrote:With kuikae nashi (pretty standard) it can only be like this. Or2az, can you confirm this is the case?
"Genbutsu kuikae(exchange same tile)" and "Suji kuikae". Standard one is both are not allowed. but sometimes "Genbutsu kuikae" only not allowed.
"Furiten is the most holiest!" - Garthe Nelson
Online Ranks
Tenhou Rating: Ozball - 1608 - 2nd dan
Old Ranks
MFC: オズボール - Seiryu (Blue Dragon) Master
MFC JPML Rank: 3rd kyu
Ron2 Rating: Ozball - 1335 League: Bronze
Online Ranks
Tenhou Rating: Ozball - 1608 - 2nd dan
Old Ranks
MFC: オズボール - Seiryu (Blue Dragon) Master
MFC JPML Rank: 3rd kyu
Ron2 Rating: Ozball - 1335 League: Bronze