open pinfu (jumbo shrimp)

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open pinfu (jumbo shrimp)

Post by or2az » Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:47 am

I find it confusing and illogical that in a closed pinfu, we waive the 2 points for tsumo so that the hand is worth 20 fu 2 han and in an open pinfu (which must be won with another yaku), we award 2 points for ron so that the hand is worth 30 fu.
This is the same amount of fu points as a closed pinfu won by ron (but that would only be 30 fu 1 han).
It seems like the open pinfu gets the 10 fu (after rounding) for menzen ron even though it is not menzen.
After consulting with two people smarter than me, I have learned the following:

Ignatius had stated: "It's true that a valueless hand, as an open hand made with only sequences, has no han value, and it will be a 30 Fu hand. But I would like to know what happens if you have a hand like that, and 2 or more han.
Is it still 30 Fu?, or as there are 2 or more han, and the hand is valueless, will it become a 20 Fu hand?"

Bart stated: "Any open hand that meets the other three requirements of Pinfu and is won by Ron will always get the 30 Fu regardless of the Yaku.
Certainly you will need one proper Yaku since the Pinfu doesn't count, for example Tanyao (if Kuitan rule applied) or a straight, outside hand, full flush or even a half-flush with four same-suit chows and a non-scoring wind pair!"

So, based on the above, I made up an example to illustrate.
Suppose you had an open full flush where you won by ron on a double-sided wait.
This is 5 han and has to be 30 fu because there are NO 20 FU RON WIN VALUES in the scoring tables.
1-crak 2-crak 3-crak 5-crak 6-crak 7-crak 3-crak 4-crak 5-crak 7-crak 8-crak 9-crak 1-crak 1-crak
I'm not crazy about this since I've not seen it written anywhere and the computer always did the scoring for me but now that I've been teaching people to play riichi with me, I need to be prepared with some logical answers.
I can see now why section 6.3 in the rules (just posted) awards 2 fu for an open pinfu. (still don't like the words "open pinfu", seems like a contradiction)
But why should it be impossible to have a 20 fu 5 han ron win? (or any amount of han greater than 1)

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Re: open pinfu (jumbo shrimp)

Post by Scott Miller » Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:07 am

Hi or2az,

Here's a link to an article I wrote about the history on the pinfu hand.

http://www.mahjongnews.com/en/news/triv ... or-nothing

In short, the 2 fu for an open pinfu is outdated and should be dropped, but old habits die hard.

:?

Edit to add:

but to address your second question,
NO 20 FU RON WIN VALUES in the scoring tables.
Right, because of the 2 fu for an open pinfu rule does exist (20 base score for winning plus 2 after rounding is always worth 30), but is often forgotten from the list in a LOT of rule books and websites, even though they got their scoring tables right.
I can see now why section 6.3 in the rules (just posted) awards 2 fu for an open pinfu.
Exactly. WE didn't forget :wink:
Last edited by Scott Miller on Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: open pinfu (jumbo shrimp)

Post by or2az » Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:30 am

Thanks. I read that a few days ago in my quest for knowledge. The empty box was a cool intro. Good article. Fit right in with the topic.
Naturally, If they ever drop it, the scoring tables will have to be updated to include the 20 fu hands.

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Re: open pinfu (jumbo shrimp)

Post by Ignatius » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:08 am

I'm still kinda puzzled about this. Maybe I'm too dumb or something...

There's no 1 Han 20 Fu value. So you cannot get that and you get 1 Han 30 Fu instead.

But when you reach a 2 Han hand, there are 20 Fu values.

So what do you get in the case Or2az exposed... Shouldn't be a 5 Han 20 Fu value? It doesn't realky matter because you reach Mangan.

What if you get a Tanyao with all the sequences exposed and obtain Haitei or Hôtei when winning?

:?
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Re: open pinfu (jumbo shrimp)

Post by or2az » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:52 am

Just to summarize and clear things up, for me too, I hope.
But when you reach a 2 Han hand, there are 20 Fu values.
I think you are looking at the tsumo tables . There are no 20 fu values for ron
shouldn't be a 5 Han 20 Fu value? It doesn't realky matter because you reach Mangan.
5 han was probably a bad example on my part. should have used 4 han (or 3), but that hand is technically 30 fu 5 han because of the extra 2 fu, but you are correct. With 5 han, the fu don't matter.
What if you get a Tanyao with all the sequences exposed and obtain Haitei or Hôtei when winning?
Still 30 fu with 2 han. You can't get 20 fu ron hands because 2 fu are awarded when an open hand is worth no fu besides the 20 fu for winning.
(I believe the haitei would give you the extra 2 for the tsumo anyway)

As Bart said, "Any open hand that meets the other three requirements of Pinfu and is won by Ron will always get the 30 Fu regardless of the Yaku. Certainly you will need one proper Yaku since the Pinfu doesn't count, for example Tanyao (if Kuitan rule applied) or a straight, outside hand, full flush or even a half-flush with four same-suit chows and a non-scoring wind pair!"

Most likely, he will include some of this in his update.
As Scott mentioned above, the 2 fu for an open pinfu rule does exist (20 base score for winning plus 2 after rounding is always worth 30), but is often forgotten from the list in a LOT of rule books and websites, even though they got their scoring tables right.

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Re: open pinfu (jumbo shrimp)

Post by Scott Miller » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:14 am

There is no way to get 1 han 20 fu.

Bottom line is this: The ONLY way to get pure 20 fu is a closed pinfu hand. An open pinfu will earn that 2 fu, and thus round to 30.

But since it must win by tsumo to earn just 20 fu (otherwise it would earn 10 fu for a closed hand won by ron) the minimum number of fan is going to always be at least 2 han; 1 han for menzentsumo and 1 for pinfu.

There are many ways to get 2 han (or more) with 20 fu simply by winning with ANY pinfu hand by tsumo.

You can combine that with as many other han combinations as you wish (straights, sanshokudōjun, iipeikō, etc), as long as it also qualifies for pinfu and is won by tsumo, it will only ever get 20 fu.

Riichi needs to dump that stupid "open-pinfu earns 2 fu garbage". Its' just a dumb dinosaur left over from the 22-mahjong days that confuses the jeebies out of beginners, and is immensely illogical. Until some major Japanese organization does it first, however, it will never happen.

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Re: open pinfu (jumbo shrimp)

Post by Gnom » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:56 am

When I teach mahjong, I don't mention the "open pinfu 2 fus" which are indeed confusing. Instead i say that the 20 fus line is only for pinfu tsumo and pinfu tsumo always get 20 hand (regardless of what other yakus are included), and anything else's starts at 30. In other words: "if you don't see any fus and you don't have pinfu tsumo it's a 30 fus hand".

Also, I can see why you'd like to make things simpler for beginners but I feel these kind of small things also make the identity of riichi... It's not THAT complicated!

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Re: open pinfu (jumbo shrimp)

Post by Referee » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:22 am

This is interesting. I thing the 2 fu for "open fu-less" ("open pinfu" is very painful to read!) should stay. Menzen Pinfu is 20 fu, and it's the only thing that should ever be (yes, 2 han minimum). Now, for things like kuitan dake, with no fu for pair or wait... You are wanting to be 20-1? That's a whopping 700 points from the discarder.

I think if we define a pinfu hand as a one worth no additional fu (other than fuutei, and if applicable menzen kafu), then you'll have to award that on open hands if you don't give a bonus for not having any other fu, and then all hell breaks loose.

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Re: open pinfu (jumbo shrimp)

Post by or2az » Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:41 am

one last question here. Upon furthur research, I have found riichi scoring tables that do list amounts for ron wins of 20fu-2han, 20fu-3han, and 20fu-4han.
What gives here? Are these correct? I thought these combinations were impossible. What hands, if any, do these refer to?
Here are 2 of the sites. My apologies to Ignatius for suggesting he was looking at the tsumo tables.
http://www.japanesemahjong.net/mahjong-rules/score
and
http://saki.wikia.com/wiki/Scoring_in_mahjong

The 1st site even states *As an exception, when a hand is open and wins by Ron, if the hand has no other Fu points, it is worth 30 Fu.
The 2nd site also states * If it's an open hand and if the total fu at this point is 20, add 2 fu. This is fu for an open pinfu.
Now I'm confused.

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Re: open pinfu (jumbo shrimp)

Post by Ignatius » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:25 am

Don't worry Or2az.


I think Gnom has the best explanation for beginners.

I've got it, at last. I think.

Every Pinfu hand, if you won by Tsumo, will obtain 20 Fu.

Any Pinfu shaped hand, with or without the Pinfu, will have 30 Fu if won by Ron.

Or if it's a Pinfu shaped hand with no Pinfu yaku within it, and won by Tsumo.


So only Pinfu + Tsumo can obtain 20 Fu.


Pinfu, Menzen Tsumo and Tanyao together should give you 3 Han 20. For a 4 Han you can add Sanshoku or Riichi to the mix...

Getting various Pinfu Menzen Tsumo combinations will get you 20 Fu and a Han value between 2 or more Han. But when you reach 5 Fu the value will be Mangan.
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Re: open pinfu (jumbo shrimp)

Post by or2az » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:47 pm

True, but the scoring tables I found had values for 20 fu RON wins. ( I get the Tsumo part)
Dealer Ron
20fu-2han...2000
20fu-3han...3900
20fu-4han...7700

Non-Dealer Ron
20fu-2han...1300
20fu-3han...2600
20fu-4han...5200

The 2nd website has 7800 instead of 7700, 1500 instead of 1300, and 2700 instead of 2600.
According to this threads conclusions, none of this makes any sense to me now unless these websites are incorrect.
Compare to Barts guide, wikipedia, wikidot, and others, which have no values listed.

I just noticed that this site also has values listed http://arcturus.su/wiki/Scoring_table

I'm still confused.
Can you provide any examples at all of 20fu Ron wins? Can anybody?

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Re: open pinfu (jumbo shrimp)

Post by Ignatius » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:11 pm

As read on this japanese web: http://mj-king.net/tensu/tensu/5_02.html

"Today there is no 20 Fu Ron victory, as every yaku, except Pinfu+Tsumo, will be 30 Fu (because of Fu kiriage.)."

So there's no real point in writing those values...

Probably, in the start of the game in Japan, all sequences-only hands had 20 Fu values... Or so I'm inclined to think.
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Re: open pinfu (jumbo shrimp)

Post by Referee » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:54 pm

I saw this thing somewhere else. It put it in the form of a chart.

Code: Select all

With pinfu-shape (four sequences, double-sided wait, no scoring pair)
        RON  TSUMO
 OPEN    22*   22*
CLOSED   30    20

Without pinfu-shape
        RON  TSUMO
 OPEN    20    22
CLOSED   30    22
And then add fu for triplets, pair, or wait.

* Since no more fu are added, those values are effectively 30.

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Re: open pinfu (jumbo shrimp)

Post by or2az » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:51 pm

Ok guys, from what I have read here today, here are my conclusions:
(1) There are absolutely no 20 fu hands won by RON.
(2) Any scoring charts with values listed for 20 fu RON hands, (of which there are many), are either incorrect, outdated, or obsolete.
(3) The one and only 20 fu hand is a closed pinfu tsumo, and that is 2 han minimum.
(4) All other No-Points hands will either add 10 fu for being menzen ron, or 2 fu for being an open-hand ron or an open-hand tsumo. (All will equal 30 fu)
That's it, I hope. ( I never want to hear the words O**N P***U again!)

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Re: open pinfu (jumbo shrimp)

Post by Senechal » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:09 am

Seven pairs: 25 fu.
Kuipin / open pinfu / horizontal exposed hand / (some other unholy translation): 30 fu.
Closed pinfu+tsumo: 20 fu.
Everything else: 20 base fu plus...

If we can accept that seven pairs with three value pairs is 25 fu, and not 31 or 40 fu, then we can put anything related to kuipin right up there before even talking about how blabbity blah blah...

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