Open and concealed

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Jiazzz
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Open and concealed

Post by Jiazzz » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:57 am

I see people who are in a suuankou non-tanki wait going for a tsumo, because if they ron it's a sanankou?
With other hands, like with an iipeikou/sanankou, they can ron on the remaining tile necessary for the iipeikou/sanankou. Their description states that the yaku tiles have to be concealed.
What's the difference in open vs. concealed in these cases?

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Shirluban
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Re: Open and concealed

Post by Shirluban » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:02 pm

Some yaku need to have a closed hand, while some others need only to have closed sets.

Remember that a hand is concealed if the 13 tenpai's tiles are self-drawn. It does not matter if the winning tile (agari-pai) is self-drawn or claimed.
So if you have a closed hand winning by ron, the last set is open, but the hand is still closed.

For iipeikou you need a closed hand, not absolutely closed sets.
2-bam 2-bam 3-bam 3-bam 4-bam 7-dot 8-dot 9-dot 4-crak 5-crak 6-crak :west :west
ron 4-bam
is a valid iipeikou hand: the last 234sou is open, but the hand is closed.

For sanankou (and suuankou), you need closed sets.
4-dot 4-dot 4-dot 5-bam 5-bam 5-bam green-dra green-dra 1-bam 1-bam
open 6-dot 7-dot 8-dot
Winning by tsumo 1-bam is ok: the three koustu are concealed.
Winning by ron 1-bam is not: the last koustu is open, you have only two concealed koutsu.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
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Re: Open and concealed

Post by Referee » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:15 pm

Note that if you are waiting on shanpoten (two pair) and you claim ron it's still a closed hand, but the set is open, and it scores fu (aka minipoints) as an open set

6-bam 6-bam 7-bam 7-bam 8-bam 8-bam 1-dot 1-dot 5-crak 5-crak white-dra white-dra white-dra

Ron 5-crak

Iipeikou counts (closed hand), and yakuhai haku (aka white) => 2 han. Fu = 20 + 8 for white + 2 for 5-man = 30 fu, 2 han (not 32, making 40)
If not the dealer 2000 points (plus repetitions, and riichi sticks), not 2600.

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Re: Open and concealed

Post by Shirluban » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:58 pm

Concealed hand on a discard is 30 fu.
Referee wrote:Iipeikou counts (closed hand), and yakuhai haku (aka white) => 2 han. Fu = 30 + 8 for white + 2 for 5-man = 40 fu, 2 han (not 42, making 50)
If not the dealer 2600 points (plus repetitions, and riichi sticks), not 3200.
:wink:
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
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Re: Open and concealed

Post by Jiazzz » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:21 pm

Ah, forgot I could use the tile emoticons.
I got some of my info of http://arcturus.su/tenhou/scorequiz/yaku.html

Got the following hand:
Concealed
8-bam 8-bam 8-bam green-dra green-dra red-dra red-dra :north :north :north Open white-dra white-dra white-dra Ron green-dra
The yaku indicated are: haku, hatsu, pei, toitoi, sanankou, shousangen, honitsu

Also with:
7-dot 7-dot 7-dot 5-bam 5-bam :east :east :east :south :south Open: 4-crak 4-crak 4-crak 4-crak Ron: :south
Also register as a sanankou. I also thought I found a vid on Youtube supporting this, but I can't seem to find it.

But hands like:
7-dot 7-dot 7-dot 8-dot 8-dot 8-dot 9-dot 9-dot 9-dot :west :west :north :north Ron: :west
Register as sanankou, not suuankou. Is the app wrong about the sanankou ron?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hands like:
4-dot 4-dot 5-dot 5-dot 6-dot 6-dot 9-bam Open: red-dra red-dra red-dra :south :south :south Ron: 9-bam
indeed not register as iipeikou as a part of the hand is open.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What about yaku with +1 if concealed/-1 if open (depends on how you look at it), does this mean the entire hand has to be concealed or just the tiles for the yaku?
eg
1-bam 2-bam 3-bam 4-bam 5-bam 6-bam 7-bam 8-bam 9-bam 2-dot Open: red-dra red-dra red-dra Ron: 2-dot
Do you get still get itsuu?

or:
2-bam 3-bam 4-bam 2-dot 3-dot 4-dot 2-crak 3-crak 4-crak 6-bam Open: 8-crak 8-crak 8-crak Tsumo: 6-bam
Do you get sanshoku?

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Re: Open and concealed

Post by Shirluban » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:19 pm

Jiazzz wrote:I got some of my info of http://arcturus.su/tenhou/scorequiz/yaku.html
That explains this, Tenhou scoring quiz has a bug.

1st ankou hand: NOT sanankou, only two ankou.
2nd ankou hand: NOT sanankou, only two ankou.
3rd ankou hand: sanankou, not suuankou.

"iipeikou hand": indeed, NOT iipeikou, the hand is open.
Jiazzz wrote:What about yaku with +1 if concealed/-1 if open (depends on how you look at it), does this mean the entire hand has to be concealed or just the tiles for the yaku?
It means you will count the yaku whenever the hand and/or sets are open or concealed.
If the hand is concealed, you get the higher value, if the hand is open, you get the lower value, whatever sets are open/closed.

3-bam 3-bam 3-bam 6-bam 6-bam 1-dot 2-dot 3-dot
open: 4-dot 5-dot 6-dot, 7-dot 8-dot ron: 9-dot
is a valid ittsu for 1 han.

ittsu hand: you have ittsu, 1 han.
sanshoku hand: you have sanshoku, 1 han.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
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Re: Open and concealed

Post by Jiazzz » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:53 pm

Thank you, that clears it up.

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Re: Open and concealed

Post by Referee » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:58 am

Yes, Shirluban. I forgot about the 30 for menzen ron, my bad. The point I tried to make is still valid, fortunately.

Tenhou's yaku quiz has a bug counting those hands as sanankou, but as Shirluban said, those first two hands don't have it.

EDIT: And by linking my old thread I found that I still have problems with the fu!

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Re: Open and concealed

Post by Gamegrunt » Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:45 am

Geez, I wish my Japanese were better!

Gg

Jiazzz
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Re: Open and concealed

Post by Jiazzz » Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:15 pm

Gamegrunt wrote:Geez, I wish my Japanese were better!

Gg
Huh?

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Re: Open and concealed

Post by Barticle » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:07 am

Clearly my terminology guide has not been your preferred bedtime reading recently, Gg!

I recommend two pages per day to improve your MJ vocabulary. It's a guaranteed insomnia cure too! :lol:

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