Dealer continuance & 5 sticks

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silent observer
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Re:Dealer continuance & 5 sticks

Post by silent observer » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:55 am

No it\'s not hard to change one version. But it\'s not easy to change each translation and many players will be afraid of change.
Actually, that would be solved by simply releasing an errata; something the EMA\'s done at least once already. But maybe that is too hard. Seriously, an errata release would be quite enough until they decide to release updated rules (which is something they need to do anyway), and when they do THAT (if ever), they can\'t very well argue that it\'s too much work to fix a mistake in a reference sheet used on, I imagine, every tournament in Europe. Indeed, they couldn\'t well use that reference sheet when they\'ve updated the rules, since the reference sheet itself would have yaku worth no han.
How do you make versions in English, Danish, French and more without the original?
Because that\'s hard. Jesus.

Ah, maybe the pdf itself wasn\'t stolen, but the reference sheet could have been, and the mistake carried on from the original. I doubt EMA are professional enough to come up with a sheet like that on their own, given how much they care about it. Oh was that sarcasm? Why yes it was.

Challenge to EMA: if you ARE professional enough to make a sheet like that; fix that, as you so eloquently put it elsewhere, \"simplification\". You should be able to do it, no?

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Re:Dealer continuance & 5 sticks

Post by Johnstonjamese » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:32 am

What I wonder though is if you reach and are aiming for tsumo, pass up on a ron and end in a draw, are you still credited for tenpai?

That situation is alot more likely I think. I`ve seen people pass up ron for tsumo a few times. I`ve even done it myself before.

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Re:Dealer continuance & 5 sticks

Post by Ruro » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:29 pm

I you reach and pass upon a tile the only thing that happens is that you become furiten for that tile till your next draw (after that you can still ron-on it).
And yes it\'s still considered tenpai, almost every situation where you are 1 away from win (ii shanten) is considered tenpai even if there is no tile you could actually win with (like it was used up for a kan by an other player). The only situation when you are 1 tile away and still not in tenpai is when you are waiting for a 5th tile.
But this tenpai thingy was already discussed in somewhere on this board, so for more info just look for the thread :)

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Re:Dealer continuance & 5 sticks

Post by WorTeX » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:02 pm

Ruro wrote:I you reach and pass upon a tile the only thing that happens is that you become furiten for that tile till your next draw (after that you can still ron-on it).
And yes it\'s still considered tenpai, almost every situation where you are 1 away from win (ii shanten) is considered tenpai even if there is no tile you could actually win with (like it was used up for a kan by an other player).
If you reach and pass up a winning tile, you are furiten, for the rest of the hand, self-draw still possible, and you are considered tenpai if exhaustive draw happens (if you haven\'t made an invalid riichi).

Tenpai means that you have 13 tiles and the 14th tile is your winning tile, iishanten means you have 13 tiles but you still need one tile to make it to tenpai, iishanten is not tenpai.

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Re:Dealer continuance & 5 sticks

Post by Ruro » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:17 pm

yea sorry i wrote the last reply at 3o\'clock so i mixed up tenpai and iishanten :P as for passing on and being furiten it depedns. If you pass up your drawed tile you are furiten for the rest of the hand as you said. But if you pass a ronnable tile you are just furiten till your next draw. Thats what i wanted to say but was to exhausted to put it in a more readable state...

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Re:Dealer continuance & 5 sticks

Post by Shirluban » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:59 pm

Ruro wrote:But if you pass a ronnable tile you are just furiten till your next draw.
Except with riichi.
If you declare riichi and become furiten, you stay furiten for the whole hand.

Furiten issue have already been discussed here:
http://www.reachmahjong.com/home/index. ... t=10#51639
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
World Riichi Championship Rules
Comparison of riichi rules around the world

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Re:Dealer continuance & 5 sticks

Post by Johnstonjamese » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:21 pm

The point of this, though, is that if you\'re at 5 continuances and reach with nothing else, it\'s perfectly legal to wait for tsumo to complete your second yaku as long as it\'s a valid tenpai.

I say valid, but I don\'t know any situation where i\'d want to reach on a prayer of a tsumo. I guess if you\'re on a 3 or 5 sided wait with a fast hand perhaps.

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Re:Dealer continuance & 5 sticks

Post by Ruro » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:21 am

Except with riichi.
If you declare riichi and become furiten, you stay furiten for the whole hand.
ehh thats good to know, seems like i was ignorant there sorry about that.
And back to the main topic: i think you can riichi without even having the 2han but to make sure i think i will try it out in some game (maybe on my DS i try setting the minimum yaku to 2 and report back with the result :P , or someone smarter in this topic could just answer the question :D )

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Re:Dealer continuance & 5 sticks

Post by Johnstonjamese » Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:13 am

Even if you\'re furiten though you still get tenpai credit. So if you\'re in this situation, you can reach and wait to tsumo. As long as you have the 2 yaku when you go out, you\'re fine.

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Re:Dealer continuance & 5 sticks

Post by Shirluban » Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:45 pm

Johnstonjamese wrote:Even if you\'re furiten though you still get tenpai credit. So if you\'re in this situation, you can reach and wait to tsumo. As long as you have the 2 yaku when you go out, you\'re fine.
I agree.
You need to have 2 han/yaku when you go out, not necessary when you reach.
Furthermore, you get the tenpai credit even with a no-yaku hand.
So, declaring riichi with a 1 han/yaku hand when you need 2 to go out, is legal.
(I write "han/yaku" because dora don\'t count for the 2 han minimum.)

You can also reach with a noten hand. It\'s considered to be a fault only in case of exhaustive draw, when you have to show a tenpai hand and can\'t.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
World Riichi Championship Rules
Comparison of riichi rules around the world

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Re:Dealer continuance & 5 sticks

Post by Ruro » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:13 pm

I thought that reaching with a noten hand is against the rules :P but maybe there are situations when you would rather take the possible chonbo for it rather then let someone win with a sanbaiman (for example you see the other player has called like 4 tiles and that makes him/her a dora 8, in that situation i would consider getting a chombo on a no-ten reach rather then paying out a dealer sanbaiman).
So is noten reach against the rules or not?

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Re:Dealer continuance & 5 sticks

Post by Poochy » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:25 am

The rule is that noten riichi is a chombo (penalty-worthy foul), much like declaring ron or tsumo with an invalid hand. However, since nobody is supposed to know anybody else\'s hand composition until the hand is over, noten riichi has to be caught to be a chombo (i.e. the hand ends in a ryuukyoku by running out of tiles and nobody has nagashi mangan, so you have to flip over your tiles to prove you\'re tenpai). Video games generally prevent you from making any move that can potentially result in a chombo.

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Re:Dealer continuance & 5 sticks

Post by Ruro » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:36 pm

Hmmm but this means i can even declare a kan while i do not have the 4 tiles for is (just 2 of the same tile for the middle 2 which are revealed when the kan is declared). So i think something is wrong with this \"if do not get caught it\'s not against the rules\" thing :) . But then again a false kan would be easly seen through (when the \"5th\" tiles gets to the table or to someone else\'s hand :D )

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Re:Dealer continuance & 5 sticks

Post by Robert » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:58 pm

When you declare kan (even concealed kan), aren\'t you required to show the faces of all four tiles in the kan?

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Re:Dealer continuance & 5 sticks

Post by WorTeX » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:53 pm

In EMA-rules you are required to reveal all the four tiles, no idea how japanese do it. But I think stuff like \"false riichi\" and \"fake kan\" only tend to occur in anime and manga, and will not help in a real game of mahjong.

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