Open Pinfu

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Gamegrunt
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Open Pinfu

Post by Gamegrunt » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:15 pm

The scoring tables award 2 mini-points for an \"open pinfu.\" I\'m guessing this means that a player goes out with a two-sided wait on one of the chi that makes up his hand.

Is this correct?

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chalwa
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Re:Open Pinfu

Post by chalwa » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:59 pm

Not really.
Open pinfu is when your hand looks like pifu (open wait, etc.), but one of mentsu is melded. So then its wort no fu (only base futei -20fu), but, you count it as pinfu because you get consolation prize-2fu (in other words for geting no fu you get 2fu).

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Re:Open Pinfu

Post by Gamegrunt » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:24 pm

chalwa wrote:Not really.
Open pinfu is when your hand looks like pifu (open wait, etc.), but one of mentsu is melded. So then its wort no fu (only base futei -20fu), but, you count it as pinfu because you get consolation prize-2fu (in other words for geting no fu you get 2fu).
Wow...learn something new about this fascinating game every day! So a player can go out with all chi, worthless pair with an open (melded) set but only earns 2 points? What is the player awarded from the other players?

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Re:Open Pinfu

Post by chalwa » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:00 pm

You know about Fan(han) and fu? Yaku gives you fan, mentsu and waits gives you fu. So if you have for example tanyao:
2-dot 3-dot 4-dot (melded) 6-dot 7-dot 8-dot 3-bam 4-bam 5-bam 6-bam 7-bam 2-crak 2-crak won on: 8-bam
You will get 1fan and 30fu (20futei +2fu for open pinfu =22fu and we count always up, to 30fu) so when east on ron:1500, east on tsumo 500 from all; others ron: 1000, others tsumo: 300/500
So to win you have to have yaku. Open pinfu its not yaku, it is named like this because its similar to pinfu, because it have no fu value.

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Re:Open Pinfu

Post by Shirluban » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:19 pm

It\'s a bit tricky :
- \"pinfu\" means \"no points\" (read \"no mini-points except the 20/30 base for going out\" ).
- The \"pinfu yaku\" is for a concealed pinfu hand. If you prefer : a concealed no point hand.
- \"open pinfu\" refers to pinfu in the meaning \"no points\", not to the yaku.

:side: I\'m not sure to be understandable here :side:

As the side note:
Since \"open pinfu\" is awarded only for an open hand with 4 shuntsu and a valueless pair, you will always have 20+2 minipoints, always rounded up to 30.
So, in fact, \"open pinfu\" gives 10 minipoints.
Cats don't do タンヤオ (tan-yao) but タニャーオ (ta-nya-o).
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Re:Open Pinfu

Post by Gamegrunt » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:56 pm

Shirluban wrote:It\'s a bit tricky :
- "pinfu" means "no points" (read "no mini-points except the 20/30 base for going out" ).
- The "pinfu yaku" is for a concealed pinfu hand. If you prefer : a concealed no point hand.
- "open pinfu" refers to pinfu in the meaning "no points", not to the yaku.

:side: I\'m not sure to be understandable here :side:

As the side note:
Since "open pinfu" is awarded only for an open hand with 4 shuntsu and a valueless pair, you will always have 20+2 minipoints, always rounded up to 30.
So, in fact, "open pinfu" gives 10 minipoints.
If no yaku, how can points be awarded? If no yaku, how do you go out with an open pinfu? I understand the mini-point thing (20+2=30 fu) but there is no han or fan so no mahjong? The smallest denomination in riichi scoring is 100, so...

I\'m so confused! :unsure:

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Re:Open Pinfu

Post by chalwa » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:40 pm

Thats the point. Its not yaku so you cant go out on it. \"Open pinfu\" is name for bonus used in counting fu (minipoints) which are part of of counting hand worth. You count fan and fu and then use table (as you must know) or use mathematics. Point is, in my opinion that name \"open pinfu\" is no good, as many players mistakes it for yaku. I would call it compensation or something, but when someone dont know japanese, seas it only as yaku, not as \"no points\". Pinfu literally means: peace, but in mahjong tearms it synonim to \"no points\" (no point = no minipoints, no fu)

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Re:Open Pinfu

Post by Shirluban » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:46 pm

Gamegrunt wrote:If no yaku, how do you go out with an open pinfu?
You don\'t.
You go out with open pinfu plus a yaku.

For example:
A)
Open: 2-bam 3-bam 4-bam
Concealed: 2-crak 3-crak 4-crak 2-dot 3-dot 4-dot 7-bam 8-bam 1-dot 1-dot + 9-bam
You score:
san shoku -> 1 yaku
base points for going out -> 20 fu
open pinfu -> 2 fu
------
Total: 1 yaku, 22 minipoints
Round up to 1 yaku, 30 minipoints.

B )
Open: 2-bam 3-bam 4-bam
Concealed: 2-crak 3-crak 4-crak 3-dot 4-dot red-dot 7-bam 8-bam 1-dot 1-dot + 9-bam
You don\'t have any yaku here, so you can not go out.


Edit:
@Chalwa : You beat me up by 6 minutes!
Point is, in my opinion that name "open pinfu" is no good, as many players mistakes it for yaku.
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Re:Open Pinfu

Post by b4k4ni04 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:56 pm

I\'ve found http://www.japanesemahjong.com/ does a better job explaining this scoring tidbit than the score sheet\'s listing of \"open pinfu does\"

Effectively there are two exceptions to fu(minipoint) scoring. These are:

Pinfu Tsumo, which negates the two minipoints for tsumo which allows you to have 2-fan 20-fu. (You may have more fan, but Pinfu, Menzen Tsumo guarantee you the two.)

and

Open Pinfu, Which really means you have an open hand with four runs. So in minipoint scoring you ought to have just 20-fu. But, just to confuse you (or to keep the 20-fu scoring specific to a closed pinfu tsumo hand) you are awarded 2 minipoints, which then round up to a total of 30-fu.
--------

I wholly disagree with calling it a 10 point bonus (even if it may effectively become that) because the only bonus of that value is for a closed hand ron.

An example to prove the point: If you have an open hand with four runs, waiting on a double sided wait, and you win on your own tsumo you would have 2 minipoints for tsumo and 10 minipoints for open pinfu? ... No! That would put you to an eventual total of 40-fu. You get 2 minipoints for the tsumo and 2 minipoints for the open pinfu resulting in a total 30-fu.

--------
The only fan you can call mahjong on with open pinfu are ----BAMF---- Edit: I obviously didn\'t think that through well enough. Brb with a full list of applicable fan.

You might have dora in the hand, but dora don\'t count towards the 1-han Minimum.
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Re:Open Pinfu

Post by chalwa » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:07 pm

b4k4ni04 wrote: The only fan you can call mahjong on with open pinfu are Tanyao, Haitei/Houtei, and ChanKan. (All simples, Final draw/discard, Kan steal) You might have dora in the hand, but dora don\'t count towards the 1-han Minimum.
Isn\'t it possible to get "open pinfu" with chin\'itsu, sanshoku and itsu? You can have made it all in sequences, and with open waits and melded.

Also I see Open pinfu as 2fu for not having fu, so when I win with tsumo, I wont count open pinfu, as I get 2fu for tsumo. I know it dosnt changes anything and maybe I\'m wrong but whinking this way its more simple. (but looks like on japanesemahjong.com they say same as me:"2. When a hand is Open, has all Runs, and finishes Ron on an Open Wait, the total points are 30." -only ron, so no 2fu for tsumo). But counting it as 10fu can be confusing, so I think its better to stick to 2fu.

BTW is "open pinfu" term made by EMA? Or is it used in japan (oopun pinfu or sth?).

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Re:Open Pinfu

Post by b4k4ni04 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:18 pm

Chalwa beat me so not double post. List of possible open pinfu Yaku:

1-han: Tanyao, Haitei/Houtei, ChanKan; San-shoku, Ikki-tsuukan(Itsuu), Hon-chanta
(All Simples, Last Draw/Discard, Kan Steal, Triple Run, Straight, Mixed Outside)

2-han: Jun-Chanta, Hon-itsu
(Pure Outside, Half Flush)

5-han: Chin-itsu
(Full Flush)

All han values are considering open hands, as we are considering hands where open pinfu might apply.

These should be it. ... Yes my first list was severely lacking ^^;.
chalwa wrote:Also I see Open pinfu as 2fu for not having fu, so when I win with tsumo, I wont count open pinfu, as I get 2fu for tsumo.
Yeah it really is better to think of it as an exception, rather than a constant rule. It is an exception that prevents anything besides Pinfu-Tsumo from having 20-fu.
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Re:Open Pinfu

Post by Gamegrunt » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:24 pm

I definitely get the idea of 2 mini-points for open pinfu when the yaku is achieved by a mixed triple chi.

Progress! :lol:

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Re:Open Pinfu

Post by chalwa » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:50 pm

Hmm, now while looking for japanese name (it looks like it will be kui-pinfu) I found this: http://www.osamuko.com/2009/03/19/some- ... n-scoring/ and this:http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%BA%BB% ... 8.E7.AE.97
On osamukos blog there is written that only when your hand have 1fan you get +2fu as 1000pkt is minimal quote to win.
I dont read japanese perfectly yet, but I think I understood this entry on japanese wiki about kui pinfu, and it says same: minimum payment is 1000, so when we have 1fan 20fu we get 30fu because otherwise we would get less then 1000. Also it says that when we have over 2fan we dont get those addiotional points, it stays at 20fu. So b4k4ni04, you were right in your previous post, only 1fan yaku gives this 2fan (30 instead of 20 fu, as there is no info about 2fu, only about this change). Thats ofcourse if we trust sources like wikipedia ;)

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