Furiten question

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or2az
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Re: Furiten question

Post by or2az » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:43 pm

ok, first hand of the game, I'm west, tenpai, waiting on the 1-crak 4-crak . (really only the 4-crak, since the hand is open)
South discards the 4-crak , I claim it for the win, and then, FURITEN.
Can't figure out why. (There was a 1-crack discard, but not by me. South claimed it from East.)
What am I missing here?
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Re: Furiten question

Post by Ignatius » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:26 pm

The player of you left took from you 1-crak to do a chii call, wich means you discarded it. As furiten aplies on all waiting tiles 1-crak and 4-crak , when you tried to pick up 4-crak you could´nt because you dropped before a 1-crak, one of your waiting tiles.
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Re: Furiten question

Post by or2az » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:35 pm

I don't think that's the case. The player on my left can only chi from the player on his left. That's why the tile is turned sideways on the left side of the chow. (I'm sure you know that, you must have been preoccupied)
As stated above, South claimed the tile from East, not from me (West). Gotta be another reason for the furiten.

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Re: Furiten question

Post by Senechal » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:59 pm

The only logical conclusion I can come up wtih given the information presented, is that you were not playing ari-ari mahjong. And we can't prove it with only that screenshot. Tenhou lets us see the game rule in the top-right. To be quite honest, I don't even know what game this is from.

It's not ryanhan-shibari, nor riichi (East 1, no repeats, there was a call made).

AFAIK, there are two options:
1 is nashi-nashi mahjong (no kuitan, no atozuke), and open tanyao was probably not part of the ruleset.
2 is "ari-nashi" mahjong, where even if kuitan was allowed, the atozuke bit refers to being able to just tack on a yaku to win. Its reverse, sakizuke, would require all your outs to have yaku. There is a crazier option called "kanzen sakizuke", but I'm not going to go there.

Technically, there is also a third option, but I sincerely hope that this isn't the case.

EDIT: The third option was a bit of a snide comment, but there is one other thing. If South called 1m, then North called South's 7p, you would still be furiten until you had a turn of your own. This is exactly what I was talking about in this thread 4 years ago, but I have to thank Yazphier for figuring it out. I dismissed the possibility myself, but it is in fact possible. Next time, send us a tenhou log, we can diagnose such problems in seconds.
Last edited by Senechal on Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Furiten question

Post by or2az » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:34 pm

The game is IOS professional mahjong kiwame
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=53059
Kuitan allowed, Atozuke allowed. (ari-ari).....also, kuikae not allowed.
ok, I'm afraid to ask, but you got me curious, what's the third option, a glitch?
Last edited by or2az on Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Furiten question

Post by Senechal » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:38 pm

It could have been trolling. My apologies, I had a bit of a trolling experience on the receiving end earlier in the day. Didn't mean to transpose the situation, despite the possibility of such genuinely existing.

New newer edit: there is a fifth option, again from Yazphier. If the game allows kuikae (switch calling), if East drops 1m, if it's allowed, South could call 1m and drop 4m. That seems like the more logical explanation, and yes, you would be furiten at that point. Assuming you got to play right after that, that is your explanation.

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Re: Furiten question

Post by Ignatius » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:31 pm

or2az wrote:I don't think that's the case. The player on my left can only chi from the player on his left. That's why the tile is turned sideways on the left side of the chow. (I'm sure you know that, you must have been preoccupied)
As stated above, South claimed the tile from East, not from me (West). Gotta be another reason for the furiten.
Yeah, you're right. This thing looks complex, with ari-ari, ari-nashi, kuikae and sakizuke rules...
Last edited by Ignatius on Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Furiten question

Post by or2az » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:32 pm

That would make sense. East tosses the 1m. I can't take it. South claims it and switches it (kuikae) for the 4m. I now can't claim the 4m until my next turn. Hence, temporary furiten.
Except for one thing, Kuikae is definitely not allowed. Back to square one.
(what is trolling,aside from its usage on the water when fishing?)
Last edited by or2az on Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Furiten question

Post by Ignatius » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:57 pm

That's a little twisted. That's why I'm sometimes confused with temporary furiten, because of situations like this...
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Re: Furiten question

Post by Ozball » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:11 am

My thought was kuikae as well, but if that's not allowed then I can only assume a bug is the cause.

As for trolling: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trolling the second definition is actually the better one. But in short it's doing something (usually on the internet) to deliberately piss someone off, or just get a reaction. Eg posting a purposefully unpopular or incorrect statement purely to get people to reply.
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Re: Furiten question

Post by Referee » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:28 am

With kuikae nashi (pretty standard) it can only be like this. Or2az, can you confirm this is the case?

Go-around 11
Oya discards 1m (You can't call because no yaku, so temporary furiten)
South calls Chi and discards 7p
North calls Pon (skipping your turn and thus you can't get out of temporary furiten)
North discards 8s

Go-around 12
Oya discards Hatsu
South discards 4m

Temporary furiten is still in effect and thus you cannot call. That is the risk of opening your hand without a guaranteed yaku.

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Re: Furiten question

Post by Ozball » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:06 am

Referee wrote:With kuikae nashi (pretty standard) it can only be like this. Or2az, can you confirm this is the case?

Go-around 11
Oya discards 1m (You can't call because no yaku, so temporary furiten)
South calls Chi and discards 7p
North calls Pon (skipping your turn and thus you can't get out of temporary furiten)
North discards 8s

Go-around 12
Oya discards Hatsu
South discards 4m

Temporary furiten is still in effect and thus you cannot call. That is the risk of opening your hand without a guaranteed yaku.
Actually yes, this. I hadn't thought of this but it's definitely a legal possibility rule wise.
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Re: Furiten question

Post by or2az » Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:14 am

Excellent explanation! That has to be what happened.
I have read this entire thread over again and the theoretical answer was there, a few times, back in 2010, and in todays posts too. I just wasn't able to put the sequence of events together in a step by step process so that it made logical sense. You did it very nicely.
I've been in this situation before (this thread, 3/2/14) but without the pong calling in the middle of it and that made it very difficult to see because of the skipped turn. This happens really fast in a video game and you don't pay much attention to it. Good job, Referee, you have increased my level of thinking by one notch. And thanks to everyone else for their input.

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Re: Furiten question

Post by Masa » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:17 pm

Understanding of temporary fruiten(同巡内フリテン), just only 2 rules you remember.
1. You do Tsumo
or
2. Open(pon/kan/chi) by yourself
Then it is gone. that's it. there are no exception.
Ozball wrote:With kuikae nashi (pretty standard) it can only be like this. Or2az, can you confirm this is the case?
"Pretty standard" is important word. "Kukae nashi" includes 2 things.
"Genbutsu kuikae(exchange same tile)" and "Suji kuikae". Standard one is both are not allowed. but sometimes "Genbutsu kuikae" only not allowed.

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Re: Furiten question

Post by Ozball » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:58 pm

Masa wrote:Understanding of temporary fruiten(同巡内フリテン), just only 2 rules you remember.
1. You do Tsumo
or
2. Open(pon/kan/chi) by yourself
Then it is gone. that's it. there are no exception.
Ozball wrote:With kuikae nashi (pretty standard) it can only be like this. Or2az, can you confirm this is the case?
"Pretty standard" is important word. "Kukae nashi" includes 2 things.
"Genbutsu kuikae(exchange same tile)" and "Suji kuikae". Standard one is both are not allowed. but sometimes "Genbutsu kuikae" only not allowed.
Oh really? Fair enough! I've never heard of Genbutsu before. I guess you learn something new everday :D
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