Another Pinfu question and EMA rules

[GRDavies]

The last couple days there\'s a discussion about waiting states in MCR, but i will \"Riichifise\" the question :

Rule 3.4.2 in the EMA-rules state that you can\'t claim tenpai when you solely wait on a single tile which your hand contains 4 of (in other words waiting on a 5th tile).
Which isn\'t 100% relevant for the given situation, but it\'s the only specification where there is a mention of a \"5th tile\".

Given situation, concealed hand, no Riichi declared, doraindicator not important:


Can i ron on (by claiming pinfu)?

Thanks in advance!

[Shirluban]

Yes. Why not?
is a valid hand.

You may have not read carefully.
The rule said exatly : \"A player is not considered tenpai if he is waiting only for a tile of which he already has 4. A player is still considered tenpai if all his waiting tiles are visible among the discards and declared sets.\"

This rule is for determining if a hand is tenpai or noten in case of an exhaustive draw (i.e. no one win and the wall is empty).
It applies only if you absolutly need to have 5 exemplars of a tile to have a (not so) valid hand. In this case, your hand is noten.
It doesn\'t matter for claiming a win, since such a hand is technically impossible to win anyway.

Here, you can have 4 sets and a pair with or . You don\'t have any yet, so you are tenpai and can win on .


This hand:

can be completed only with a 5th , so it falls under this rule and can not count as a tenpai hand.

[GRDavies]

Well to tell you the truth i\'m just relaying one of the arguments (the riichi rule is used in the MCR discussion as an argument), so i haven\'t looked up the rule myself, but the relevance of the argument is that it gives the mention of a 5th tile which is relevant, because basicly the question is, can you wait on a 5th tile?

But as i didn\'t look up the rule, but just quoted it from second hand - my bad -, you on the other hand didn\'t read my question very well. I did (already) understand i was tenpai with my given situation since at least on of my waits (9-dot) is available, but that wasn\'t the question, altough i thank you for the clarification.

The given situation has no yaku (yet) and since i\'m waiting for 9-dot or the 5th 6-dot (which isn\'t possible), can i claim Pinfu when i ron on 9-dot, which is the only yaku available that way?

[Senechal]

Well, you can\'t actually claim pinfu if you threw the 3p, as your waits are 3-(6)-9p. That would be a foul.

Assuming you didn\'t, you can claim either one and it should be fine.

[GRDavies]

Thank you for pointing out my thinking error, because i clearly didn\'t see you can also go out on (i find it easier to create a hand in practice (when im playing) then theoretical make some up). That makes it an bad example which should consist of a 2-sided wait (not 3) with one side not being available (a 5th tile would be needed) and no yaku yet available.

would be a better example.
Again concealed hand, no furiten tiles have been thrown and no riichi declared and doraindicator not important.

Can i claim pinfu when i ron on (barring a robbing the kong)? In other words is it a 2-sided chow wait when on of the sides is not available (a 5th tile is needed)?
I do see you\'re also waiting on and (tsumo/last tile only) but i can\'t make a better example then this at the moment.

[MortenA]

I understand how you are thinking but it doesn\'t quite apply in riichi. Pinfu is often defined as a hand consisting of 4 chows where the pair is not a dragon, seat wind or round wind and where you\'re going out on a double ended wait.

So actually your question is:\"is it a double ended wait when you are not tenpai on the other end?\". The answer is yes because a pinfu hand is really a hand with no \'minipoints\' or what some might call a chickenhand. You are able to ignore the two minipoints for Tsumo though. In riichi you get minipoints for going out on the pair, an edge wait or a middle wait but since this is neither you don\'t get any points and it qualifies as a pinfu hand.

Hope that helps.

[Shirluban]

Ok, I think I understand the question now.
Indeed, I haven\'t read carefully the \"(by claiming pinfu)\" in parenthesis and concentrate too much on the irrlelvnt rule 3.4.2 about exaustive draw. My bad.

So the questing is \"Can we count a double-side wait when one side is waiting for the 5th tile? And can we count pinfu in this case?\"

I belive yes.
As long as such a wait is not a \"middle wait\" nor a \"terminal wait\" not a \"pair wait\", I belive it\'s a double-side wait and doesn\'t reward any point. So it complies with pinfu.



PS: I didn\'t see the link with your \"discussion about waiting states in MCR\" nor how \"the riichi rule is used in the MCR discussion as an argument\".

[GRDavies]

PS: I didn\'t see the link with your "discussion about waiting states in MCR" nor how "the riichi rule is used in the MCR discussion as an argument".

I don\'t know how to read your PS; you didn\'t read it because you became focused on the 3.4.2 rule or you don\'t see the relevance with this thread.
If the latter is the case here is the original MCR situation:


Can you claim hu (Riichi\'s ron) if is discarded?

Don\'t know if you\'re familiar with MCR, but basicly no hans, but every (or at least a lot) scoringposibility is translated to points and you need a minimum of 8 points to out:
- Concealed hand, 2 points
- All Simples (Riichi\'s tanyo), 2 points
- Tile hog (4 same tiles, not a kong), 2 points
- Mixed double chow, 1 point
- Closed wait, 1 point

And the latter is the discussion, because closed wait subscribes that you can only count it if it\'s the only tile you can go out with and since the hand also waits on the 5th , it can\'t be counted, because multiple waits. But others reason there are no 5 same tiles and thus can\'t be counted as a wait.
And since this is a Riichi thread i made a Riichi example, also because i do want to know how to handle the situation if it ever comes up and because a reference was made to rule 3.4.2.

[silent observer]

You can\'t invent new tiles in riichi mahjong. If you have a kan (called or otherwise) and is waiting on that _single tile_ to go out, you\'re not in tenpai. However, if you\'re waiting on that tile but all 4 instances of it are visible (in whatever configuration, as long as they\'re not all yours), then you\'re considered to be in tenpai. That is how ron2 works, at least.

To formulate:
If you require 5 tiles of a single kind to be able to finish your hand, then you\'re not in tenpai.

I would imagine that it is the same to claim pinfu - that\'s how we use it at least - if you\'re waiting on 6 and 9, but already have 4 of the 6 (or 4 of the 9, obviously), then you can\'t claim a two-sided wait, since the only way you could get a 2-sided wait would be if there were 5 of that particular tile.

[Shirluban]

I don\'t see how someone can use a Riichi Mahjong issue to handle a Chinese Official (aka MCR) problem. It\'s two separate rules with very different concerns, espacialy about the current matter.
Riichi and CO have two differnt definition for waiting patterns:
At CO, \"egde wait\", \"closed wait\" and \"single wait\" can be scored only if you wait for only one kind of tile. (as you said)
At RM, the number of tiles you\'re waiting on does not matter. You can choose on which wait you win.

For exemple, if you have this hand (concealed)

and win on the :
- at RM you have to choose if you win by completing the 123, giving 2 points, or if you win by completing the 345, giving pinfu.
- at CO, you can not get the point for winning on 123. Dot, end of the line.

It\'s two different concepts.
Any answer with one of them gives no info for the other one.

-----------

To answer your CO question:
This problem have been treated long time ago on Mahjong News forum. The official book and is explanation file are obscure about this. If it occurs, you will have to ask the head-referee.

-----------

@ silent observer :
If you can\'t claim a two-sided wait, what kind of wait can you claim?

Pinfu is not realy about \"having a two-side wait\", but rather \"having a no-point wait\". This case is certainly not a valuable wait, so pinfu will be scored.

[silent observer]

It\'s an edge wait or pair wait - it depends on how the hand looks, really, and I\'m way too lazy to come up with examples for it. You do it - if it\'s not a pinfu wait, it has to be something else; score it as that.

[MortenA]

It\'s an edge wait or pair wait - it depends on how the hand looks, really, and I\'m way too lazy to come up with examples for it. You do it - if it\'s not a pinfu wait, it has to be something else; score it as that.

Hmm, no. In the example given:


You are waiting for the . Since you don\'t have another one of those it\'s not a pair-wait. Edge-wait are only on threes and sevens so not that either and middle-waits can\'t happen on a nine since you need something on both sides. So I\'ll still say this is a valid pinfu hand.

[HotelFSR]

I agree. I\'d say it\'s a valid pinfu.

[GRDavies]

-----------

To answer your CO question:
This problem have been treated long time ago on Mahjong News forum. The official book and is explanation file are obscure about this. If it occurs, you will have to ask the head-referee.

-----------

I\'m sorry, apparently i missed that one, but then again my life\'s purpose is not to crawl the web to search for internetfora where i can cross my "digital pen" with my internetfoes (which of my enemies claims i\'m paranoia? ;) ) ;) . That and that it is a current topic on the dutch version of MahjongNews.com.
What is apparent that in the matter "Can you be considered waiting on a non-valid hand?" you basicly have 2 kind of people; people who can or are willing to think outside the (mahjong) box and people who can\'t or won\'t.
Or maybe you have 3 kind of people, people who don\'t care - like me, i tend to the first, but have no problem if it\'s decided otherwise, as long as it is clear before the game starts (i\'m from Switzerland ;) ) -. I have that attitude about all kind of games, MCR, RCR, other board or cardgames.

The "capo di capo" in other words the reigning president of the EMA and certified MCR referee Robert Rijnders has decided that it doesn\'t matter if one of your waits is one on a non-valid hand, waiting is waiting.

[silent observer]

Morten A:
But it\'s not an actual pinfu wait. Still, I suppose you have a point.

My point is still valid for the tenpai case though, ron2 agrees with me.