Tsumo overrides ron in WRC?

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Lxa_
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Tsumo overrides ron in WRC?

Post by Lxa_ » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:55 pm

The document "World Riichi Rules 2015 Clarifications and Additions" says "a win by tsumo must always trump a ron call".

Does this mean that after a player declares ron, the player next in turn after the discarder is still allowed a chance to attempt drawing a tile and possibly declaring tsumo on it? And in this case the tsumo call will override the ron?

Sounds obviously wrong for me, but is not it exactly in accordance with what the rule document is saying?

Note the context - the complete paragraph is: "Fair play should be observed to allow some leeway. Especially if the next player was notably fast. Except in case of a win: a win by tsumo must always trumps a ron call, and a call for ron must always trumps calls for chii, pon or kan." So if there is a player who is a little slow to call pon and the player next in turn after the discarder is very fast and already draws a tile, "some leeway" should be allowed and the pon call can be done. But the win calls, particularly tsumo vs. ron are exceptional, so with whatever speed the ron and tsumo calls are made and whatever the order of ron and tsumo calls being made is, the tsumo will always override the ron...

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Re: Tsumo overrides ron in WRC?

Post by Ozball » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:06 am

Short Answer: No, the next player does not get a chance to draw after a Ron call.

Long Answer: I believe the clarification is an attempt to deal with special cases that could arise out of the following "rule":
Fair play should be observed to allow some leeway. Especially if the next player was notably fast. ... So if there is a player who is a little slow to call pon and the player next in turn after the discarder is very fast and already draws a tile, "some leeway" should be allowed and the pon call can be done.
Say I'm waiting on a 5-dot and you're waiting on a 1-bam. The player to your left discards the 5-dot, and I'm slow on my call (or you're fast on your draw), and I call Ron late, after you've drawn your tile, and you happen to have drawn the 1-bam, then your call of Tsumo would beat my call of Ron, despite the ruling that "some leeway" be given on calls, even though my Ron should have been "first".
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Re: Tsumo overrides ron in WRC?

Post by Shirluban » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:08 am

Ozball got it right.

But it more have to do with the first two sentences of the chapter:
Calls for chii and pon/kan can be made until the next player draws.
Calls for ron can be made until the next player discards or declares a win by self-draw, riichi, concealed kan or promoted kan.
A late ron is allowed, even after the next player has drawn.
So you may have already drawn and completed your winning hand when someone calls ron; in this case you win by tsumo and disregard the ron.

If you haven't drawn yet, then you have no way to call tsumo. You definitively can not draw after someone called ron.
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Re: Tsumo overrides ron in WRC?

Post by or2az » Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:06 pm

A late ron is allowed, even after the next player has drawn.
Calls for ron can be made until the next player discards or declares a win by self-draw, riichi, concealed kan or promoted kan.
Are you saying that a late ron is allowed even if the player calling ron had more than enough time to do so (and didnt) before the next player drew a tile?

That would infer that in my last post, when the ron of the 6-dot was missed during riichi, that she still had time to call it after the next player (who is allowing enough time) drew a tile, as long as that player hasn't discarded yet.

http://reachmahjong.com/en/forum/viewto ... 120#p60977

I'm having a hard time with that one.

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Re: Tsumo overrides ron in WRC?

Post by Ozball » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:01 pm

or2az wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:06 pm
A late ron is allowed, even after the next player has drawn.
Calls for ron can be made until the next player discards or declares a win by self-draw, riichi, concealed kan or promoted kan.
Are you saying that a late ron is allowed even if the player calling ron had more than enough time to do so (and didnt) before the next player drew a tile?

That would infer that in my last post, when the ron of the 6-dot was missed during riichi, that she still had time to call it after the next player (who is allowing enough time) drew a tile, as long as that player hasn't discarded yet.

http://reachmahjong.com/en/forum/viewto ... 120#p60977

I'm having a hard time with that one.
I'd say in the case you mentioned, that yes, in theory she would have until the discard of the next player.

However, this is all assuming the player drawing drew quickly, or there was not ample time for the winner to declare Ron,
"some leeway" should be allowed and the pon call can be done.
So it wouldn't give someone the time from discard to discard to call Ron in all cases, just if play is progressing fast. Eg, My opposite player discards my win, I ignore it for a bit, and my left player spends some time deciding whether to chi the tile or not, but ultimately decides to not, and draws and discards as normal. In cases like this I'd say that once the next player had drawn, then I could no longer call Ron, since I would have had ample time to notice the tile and call Ron while the player was considering whether to Chi.
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Re: Tsumo overrides ron in WRC?

Post by or2az » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:21 pm

Understood.
I still don't like the "until the next player discards" part.

I would prefer;
A late ron is allowed, even after the next player has drawn a tile, if that player has not allowed common sense ample time for the ron to be called.
(3-4 seconds, 5 at the most)

I've seen video game apps that allow only 5-7 seconds for any move to be made so 5 seconds should be enough time to RON.
(I believe Tenhou only allowed 5 sec per turn and call opportunity)

I stress to my groups that they need to know and be aware of all the tiles they are waiting for so that they don't end up passing up a win.

Your opinion?

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Re: Tsumo overrides ron in WRC?

Post by Ozball » Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:29 am

Honestly, I do agree with you on the timing. It's something I've had to struggle with recently at the Melbourne Mahjong Meetup. Not so much the case of rons etc, but players not being aware of all their tiles etc. It falls a bit under the umbrella of being able to play fast.

I am generally of the opinion that you should know what your next turn discard will be when you discard on this turn (or at least have a good idea, since of course you can't know what you will draw, or what others will throw). You should generally know what you want to do for as many possible outcomes as possible. So you should know that if you have a 4-bam 6-bam group, whether you will chi if the 5-bam is thrown, and in theory also have a good idea what your discard will be in that situation. This allows you to call, reveal, discard in a quick and timely fashion, but also helps you avoid missing out on pons because you hadn't considered that possibility yet, and also holding up the table while you suddenly consider whether you should chi that tile your left player just threw.


Having said all that.... I do understand where the WRC rules are coming from, and there are cases where people are not used to playing to speed. The rules are trying to be flexible, and account for players from all walks of life. Not all (and apparently a lot less than I first expected) players have played, or regularly play a computerised version of Mahjong with time limits. A lot of people are used to playing in person and casually, so their overall speeds are a lot slower, and they haven't trained themselves to make the constant decisions that help one play faster. And this isn't just new players, we've got some players who have been playing for a few years who are still slow as mud, and spend a lot of time thinking, especially after (or before) calls. Where these people to qualify for WRC (speed isn't necessarily a good indication of Mahjong strength), then it would be unfair to expect them to suddenly play to the speed one might see in Japan (I feel the west plays a bit slower than Japan in general, but that's a topic for another post/rant). Yes, they should try and play faster out of consideration to the other players, but that's not something that can be changed overnight, or even in the few months leading up to the WRC after you are selected, especially if your group only meets once a fornight, or once a month.

TL;DR
I agree with you on the timing aspects, in generally 5-7 seconds should be enough. However, I feel the WRC Rules are written to accommodate a larger variety of players from a wide variety of Mahjong backgrounds, and not all of them would be able to play to a strict X second rule. (You also then have issue with policing the exact timing, which is harder to do outside of video game apps)
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Re: Tsumo overrides ron in WRC?

Post by Shirluban » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:01 am

or2az wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:06 pm
Are you saying that a late ron is allowed even if the player calling ron had more than enough time to do so (and didnt) before the next player drew a tile?
Yes.
The problem here is to define what "more than enough time" means, and how it's checked.

A time limit can't realistically be enforced, since we don't use a timer. And even for filmed games it would take too much time to check, dealing more harm to the game flow than good (this would also pose other problems if not filmed directly by TO; we can't just ask Mondo "Hey stop doing your work, we need to check if this call was made in 2.5 or 3.1 seconds").

Relying on players' common sense ain't good either, as it's not that common. It could work within a club, and probably up to a national tournament, but not in an international championship mixing people from very different backgrounds. The thrills of a world champion title might also hinder some players' ability to honestly use their common sense.

So we need a clear cut.
Especially since the options are to either let the player win or to give them a dead hand; making it far from a light decision.

Considering a ron ends the game, it doesn't harm to allow a late call.
It also cover both cases of playing very fast and playing very slowly, as it renders "shark drawing" ineffective as well as being forgiving in beginners games.
I'm well aware it can be abused (5-7s to call is veryyy long in a tournament), but only in cases the drawing player is abusively long too (5-7s to discard is also veryyy long in a tournament).


TL;DR: While it can be surprising, it solves the practical point of being able to actually enforce the rules, and to do so in a consistent way. It also self-adapt to the game speed.
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Re: Tsumo overrides ron in WRC?

Post by Lxa_ » Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:10 am

I agree that trying to limit the time for calling ron would be problematic. I like the WRC rule that allows late ron as it is.

In addition, there is one more reason for allowing late ron - sometimes finding your waits can be tricky even for experienced players, particularly so with closed chinitsu hands. It very well can require a few extra seconds to realize that the tile just discarded actually completes your hand, especially if you just got to tenpai on your previous turn and have not finished figuring out all your waits yet.

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