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Hi people

Does anyone know a digital version somewhere of the Vietnamese rules, with the parafernalia of jokers they have?

Thx

Howdy! I've never used it but I know that Four Winds offers a huge range of pre-defined rule-sets and custom rule options ...but even they don't list Vietnamese among the twenty rule-sets included.

They allow the addition of jokers to any game but I suspect that these are only simple wildcard jokers (either normally shuffled into the pack or the one virtual wildcard which all players automatically receive in the Taiwanese variant played with a hand of 12 instead of 13). I understand that Vietnamese has a range of different types of jokers, each with different properties?

PS For what it's worth, I've found the Vietnamese word for mahjong! It's "Mạt chược".

http://tinyurl.com/vietMJ

Barticle wrote:Howdy! I've never used it but I know that Four Winds offers a huge range of pre-defined rule-sets and custom rule options ...but even they don't list Vietnamese among the twenty rule-sets included.

They allow the addition of jokers to any game but I suspect that these are only simple wildcard jokers (either normally shuffled into the pack or the one virtual wildcard which all players automatically receive in the Taiwanese variant played with a hand of 12 instead of 13).

Yes, they allow only simple wildcard jokers (although you can specify that jokers are disallowed in sequences). Also, there is a limit to the number of jokers, and Four Winds is a lot of buggy software.

Edit: Discussion moved from Making Mahjong Card Game:

ryulusus wrote:Does anyone know the vietnamese joker rules?

Cheers

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I know Vietnamese rules are on Tom Sloper's site, but I can't find where.
I've a copy if you want, but you'd better ask Tom directly.
1st and 2nd row are flowers (1st row: Queen 1 to 4, 2nd row: King 1 to 4).
3rd and 4th row are jokers:

3rd row (left to right):
The General : can be used instead of any suit tile
Dragon Lady : stand for any dragon tile
Lord of Craks : stand for any wan tile
Lord of winds : stand for any wind tile

4th row (left to right):
Lord of Dots: stand for any pin tile
Lord of Bams : stand for any sou tile
Big Flower : stand for any flower
The emperor : stand for any tile

The 8 jokers in this image are enclosed in a rectangular frame, some sets may not have this frame (colors may vary too).
Some other sets will have three times theses 8 jokers : one set enclosed in a rectangular frame, one in a circle, and one in a rhomb.

Shirluban wrote:I know Vietnamese rules are on Tom Sloper's site, but I can't find where.

There are pics of the Vietnamese jokers under the Special Tiles section of Tom's FAQ.

http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq/special.htm

(I found them last week after your previous question about them, Luis.)

Hi Guys

WOW, thanks a lot, that is great. )))))

I believe the 8 x flowers can work the same way as flowers / seasons correct?

I have to check, not want to double the number of cards I'm creating... if they do the same and / or are played the same.

Maybe I'll place Jenn as the Dragon Lady! xD

ryulusus wrote:I believe the 8 x flowers can work the same way as flowers / seasons correct?

Yes, Kings and Queens works like other flowers.
But they come in addition to normal flowers. (Did I forget to mention that?)

So a full Vietnamese set will have:
4x 9 bamboos
4x 9 circles
4x 9 wan
4x 4 winds
4x 3 dragons
4 flowers
4 seasons
4 kings
4 queens
8 jokers enclosed in a rectangle
8 jokers enclosed in a circle
8 jokers enclosed in a rhomb

Shirluban wrote: I know Vietnamese rules are on Tom Sloper's site, but I can't find where.
I've a copy if you want, but you'd better ask Tom directly.

http://www.sloperama.com/downlode/mahjongg/

O... k...

So we have eight jokers which suposedely do the same thing but they are tripled? Why?

And we have four queens and kings which are the same as flowers and seasons...
So, what value to they have in the game? I can't believe the only thing they do is being drawn and discarded to get another card...

I get the general, the lord of winds, etc, but flowers and seasons are still a bit misterious to me.
Can anone help?

Cheers

ryulusus wrote:O... k...
So we have eight jokers which suposedely do the same thing but they are tripled? Why?
Can anone help?

Did you read the two files at http://www.sloperama.com/downlode/mahjongg/ yet?
The eight jokers do not all do the same thing.

Hi Tom

I did, what I meant by doing the same thing is, that by trippling the Jokers there is absolutely no game difference in a rectangulared emperor and a circled emperor, for instance, except you get a bonus if you get all of the jokers of the same border (and/or color). This assumes you are playing with all 24(!) jokers, which cause total chaos on the game, since the implications of possible combinations coming from having 3 x emperors on the set are already huge, add in 3 x generals and 3 x dragon ladies (not mentioning the other 5 joker types) and you have games which end on average on 2nd and 3rd draw from the wall, if not win immediately on taking the 14 tiles.

In what concerns the flowers (my concern) and the difference between them and kings and queens, is that on the files it is written:

"The Kings and Queens are nothing more than extra Flower tiles. They are used exactly the same as the other flowers." Considering that they are used on top of flowers used in the set (thanks Shirluban) and reasonable the same as red fives, then you have 4 flowers + 4 seasons + 4 kings + 4 queens + (3 red fives) = 16 or 19 extra dora tiles (raised to 32 or 35 if using modern vietnamese sets) without any good game (hand making) essence.

In my perspective, using the 8 "honor" jokers (without trippling) is ok, adds to the randomness factor and multiplies the possibility of combinations while decreasing the tile counting strategy of more experienced mahjong players (which helps begginers a bit IMHO), but adding kings and queens which only double flowers and seasons (because they also come in the set!) is void of sense.

In the other discussion I'm having regarding the creation of a card set for printing, I'll place them because I want it to have the best possibilities and as many tiles out there in existance and because the pictures look nice

Tom, do you want me to Photoshop the image of the Vietname Mahjong Rules where the kings and queens are?
No problem at all, you doubled the South Queen, if you want I can try to correct it

Cheers

"ryulusus" wrote:

>I did, what I meant by doing the same thing is, that by trippling the Jokers there is absolutely no game difference in a rectangulared emperor and a circled emperor

Your original question was why have tripled jokers. While there is no difference between them during the play of the hand, the difference (and the reason for it) becomes apparent when scoring.

>except you get a bonus if you get all of the jokers of the same border (and/or color).

Oh. You already knew this. That is the answer to the "why" you asked (insofar as a reason can really be given for the existence of any rule).

>you have games which end on average on 2nd and 3rd draw from the wall, if not win immediately on taking the 14 tiles.

I don't know that that's really true; I haven't found anyone to try playing the variant with me.

>In what concerns the flowers ...Considering that they are used on top of flowers used in the set (thanks Shirluban) and reasonable the same as red fives

I disagree with equating flowers with red fives. Only one's "own" flower doubles one's score; other flowers do not.

>Tom, do you want me to Photoshop the image of the Vietname Mahjong Rules where the kings and queens are?
>No problem at all, you doubled the South Queen, if you want I can try to correct it

I see that the image on page 5 of the Word file shows two #2 Queens. Not sure how I did that, unless my set has two #2s. I could just rescan the tile.

ryulusus wrote:reasonable the same as red fives

NO.
A flower is just a lucky extra tile.
A red five is a bonus integrated in game mechanism.

Flower = You draw it, you have it. You don't draw it, you don't have it.
Red five = You draw it but can't use it, you do not have it. You don't draw it but can use it, you may have it.

ryulusus wrote:then you have 4 flowers + 4 seasons + 4 kings + 4 queens + (3 red fives)

Vietnamese sets don't have red fives.
Your home-made card set will certainly have, but please don't mix japanese and vietnamese rules.

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Flowers and jokers represent more than 1/5th of the tiles, so Vietnamese mahjong should be very different from what we are used to

ryulusus wrote:Tom, do you want me to Photoshop the image of the Vietname Mahjong Rules where the kings and queens are?
No problem at all, you doubled the South Queen, if you want I can try to correct it

I fixed the image on page 5 of the Word doc. You can re-download it and delete the old file.

Hello to all

Hmmmm ok I have to accept that my joker knowledge is lacking... better make them all and check rules later,
at least the PDF deck will be much more complete.

thx