Help in identifying an oddity

[iandstanley]

Here\'s an odd mahjong set ... any ideas? According to the manaufacturer (jingguo.net) it\'s for hong kong mahjong it appears amoungst a list of 18 different hong kong mahjong sets

It seems slightly reminiscent of asian dominoes

It may not even be mahjong as the same manufacturer has this filed under chess :unsure:


A bit odd really!

[Robert]

The second picture is mahjong tiles, but that\'s only one suit plus dragons: not good for mahjong, but great for baccarat.

[Tom Sloper]

They look like Chinese dominos.

[url]http://a_pollett.tripod.com/cards44.htm[/url]
http://www.pagat.com/class/domino.html
http://www.asiasociety.org/arts/asiangames/match01.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/playing-card

[iandstanley]

They do resemble chinese dominoes (kwat p\'ai) to a point in the style of numbers (the same style as used on authentic chinese dice red 1\'s and 4\'s, later dominoes also coloured red half of the sixes\' dots on the double six dominoes unlike some of the earliest).

But there are several differences:

1. wrong dimensions ... chinese dominoes are always much longer (L:W is approx 3:2 whereas chinese dominoes are always 5:1 ratio. Normal size is 2.5\"x1\")

2. chinese dominoes always have a set configuration. Like Chinese mahjong always has 144 tiles in the configuration we all know; European dominoes have a set of 28 unique dominoes; Chinese dominoes always have 36 dominoes in the set 21 being unique (the following tiles are duplicated 6-6, 1-1, 4-4, 1-3, 5-5, 3-3, 2-2, 5-6, 4-6, 1-6 and 1-5)

3. The set consists of 3 duplicate tile, a 2 borderd duplicates of that tile and a double headed version of that tile (e.g the top left corner reads three 1-1s, doubled headed and bordered 1-1, and two bordered 1-1s

4. The set includes bordered blank tiles (which could be spare tiles, however kwat p\'ai are not supplied with blanks as they are relatively cheap to replace unlike mahjong sets).

5. Kwat p\'ai never vary the colouring (see note below on Korean version), length to width ratio or approximate dimensions, the distribution of tiles which makes a complete set despite the tiles moving all over asia and in modern times across europe/USA


Chinese dominoes are used all over asia most commonly in China and Korea. The rules across asia typically are identical to the well known chinese/korean games. In Korea the one spots are made slightly larger (much more in line with Chinese dice which also feature this type of hole) and they do not follow the more modern fashion of colouring 3 of each of the six spots on the double six dominoes.

I have a substantial collection of asian games (virtually every chess variant pre-1900 across asia; go; luzhanqi and Si Guo Da Zhan [chinese army chess - like Stratego; and 4 country war]; dou shou qi; a number of chinese/japanese/korean card games and a good selection of others)

Admittedly, I do not know of anything like these tiles/dominoes. They certainly do not match any Mahjong set (no suits, dragons, winds or flowers) .... nor are they chinese dominoes in either of the two forms known today (chinese or korean) nor any documented form that I have come across.

I suspect they are from either a relatively new game in China (post-1950) that has not made a move outside of China or it is some kind of childs game (you do see a number of variants of mahjong made specifically for young
children, typically dropping winds/dragons or are one suited .... often the rules are twisted out of recognition)


PPS If any one knows of any odd/unusual asian game drop me a message or add to this post. I would be interested in extending my collection.

thanks

- Ian

[Shirluban]

It may be not chinese dominos, but it\'s clearly domonos.

I see:
- 3 complete sets of dominos from 1-1 to 6-6, not bordered.
- 2 complete sets of dominos from 1-1 to 6-6, bordered.
- 1 complete set of dominos from \"double 1-1\" to \"double 6-6\", bordered.
- 2 extra pieces, bordered.

Donno how to play with it, nor how the game is called, but it\'s definitively dominos.

[Shirluban]

1. wrong dimensions
Such a crime!
Stone them!

2. chinese dominoes always have a set configuration. Like Chinese mahjong always has 144 tiles in the configuration we all know; European dominoes have a set of 28 unique dominoes; Chinese dominoes always have 36 dominoes in the set 21 being unique (the following tiles are duplicated 6-6, 1-1, 4-4, 1-3, 5-5, 3-3, 2-2, 5-6, 4-6, 1-6 and 1-5)
\"Chinese mahjong always has 144 tiles\"
\"Chinese mahjong always has 144 tiles\"
(Non-chinese mahjong not-always have 144 tiles)

\"Chinese dominoes always have 36 dominoes in the set 21 being unique\"
Here they are!
(They are a bit more too...)

4. The set includes bordered blank tiles (which could be spare tiles, however kwat p\'ai are not supplied with blanks as they are relatively cheap to replace unlike mahjong sets).
I know japanese mahjong sets which come with flowers. But japanese mahjong does not use flowers. Are they not japanese sets in fact?
I don\'t think manufacturer\'s habits to be revelant in guessing about the usefullnes of some tiles for an un-identified game rule.

5. Kwat p\'ai never vary the colouring (see note below on Korean version), length to width ratio or approximate dimensions, the distribution of tiles which makes a complete set despite the tiles moving all over asia and in modern times across europe/USA
Only fools don\'t change their mind.
Are you 110% sure they never never change any thing?

I have a substantial collection of asian games (virtually every chess variant pre-1900 across asia; go; luzhanqi and Si Guo Da Zhan [chinese army chess - like Stratego; and 4 country war]; dou shou qi; a number of chinese/japanese/korean card games and a good selection of others)
Wow :blink: You should have a museum too!

Admittedly, I do not know of anything like these tiles/dominoes.
Admittedly, I don\'t, either.

They certainly do not match any Mahjong set (no suits, dragons, winds or flowers) .... nor are they chinese dominoes in either of the two forms known today (chinese or korean) nor any documented form that I have come across.
Agreed.
It\'s definitively not a mahjong set.

thanks

- Ian[/quote]

Sorry for the sarcastic tone.

- Sylvain

[Tom Sloper]

Sorry for the sarcastic tone.

IMO, you made a valid point with all that. Even the statement "Chinese mahjong always uses 144 tiles" - which you gave not to assert that Chinese mahjong ALWAYS uses 144 tiles, since there are dozens of exceptions to that, but to illustrate the problematic nature of dogmatic statements. Consider:

Some Chinese players add jokers.
Some Chinese players omit suits.
Some Chinese players omit honors.

So although you meant that statement as an example of a supposedly "valid" dogmatic statement that some might make, even that statement is far from always true. Especially when we\'re talking about a nation as huge, populous, and diverse as China.

[iandstanley]

which you gave not to assert that Chinese mahjong ALWAYS uses 144 tiles

I meant the standard set (yes there are a number of variants akin to dialects in languages which probably occurred due to certain house rules becoming very popular e.g. Szechuan Style Mahjong) compared to the differences between sets like vietnamese and american tilesets. As with many other games (e.g. chess sets ... it can take a while before standard forms appear ... but after that the other forms typically die off)


I\'m sure that these tiles are some sort of domino like game but I believe that they are more likely to be a modern-ish game as the tiles are obviously made to mahjong proportions and would therefore post date mahjong rather than the traditional proportions which could date the game mcuh earlier.




In a similar vein, the game Kabufuda (Japanese card game similar to Baccarat) shown above is related both in time and manaufacture to Hanafuda ... the cards being of very similar dimension rather than from european cards which originated a few centuries earlier. We know hanafuda was developed following trade with Portuguese sailors and kabufuda are similarly manaufactured which allows a reasonable conjecture in dating kabufuda.

[chalwa]

Regarding Kabufuda, afaik kabufuda is like 100 years older then hanafuda, and were developed from different cards (kabu is one pattern set (same suit repeated 4 times, values 1 to 12), and hana is 12 suits, values 1 to 4. Smaller size of japanese cards is (probalby) because of that portugese cards (from which kabu, mekuri, and hana patterns developed) where thorn out by sailors, and their borders where cutted.
So you cant date kabu and hana (and assume that they are developed at same time), just because they have same size and both originated from portugese cards, as all card games (exept traditional uta karuta, e-awase etc) came from those... Read this page, if you want to know more:
http://l-pollett.tripod.com/cards9.htm

[iandstanley]

So you cant date kabu and hana

I wasn\'t attempting to date them at the same time. We do not know which came first of these two BUT We do know however, the pasteboard cards post date the trade with the portugese and therefore kabufuda and hanafuda must BOTH post date the portugese

In the same vein, these tiles shown at the top of the post follow the mahjong tileset dimensions and are much closer to mahjong tiles with different markings than chinese (or korean, thai or burmese) dominoes which differ in dimensions, number, markings (yes I know that a small subset follow chinese dominoes but the distribution is completely different and a substantial number of new tiles occur).

It appears to be a hiterto unknown game that happens to be manufactured by a mahjong tile producer.