Robbing a kong and payment

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Nick12345
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Robbing a kong and payment

Post by Nick12345 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:07 pm

In zung jung version:

1. Robbing a kong can be done at any time if it is a winning hand, or it can only be done immediately after a small exposed kong by another user?

2. I did not yet understand how much to pay for how much points? How to convert how much USD to how much scored points?

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Re: Robbing a kong and payment

Post by Barticle » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:55 pm

Hi Nick.

1. You can "rob" a small exposed kong (an exposed pung "upgraded" to a kong using a tile drawn from the wall), but only when your own hand can be completed by that tile at the moment when the kong is declared. After that the tile would be considered unavailable, just like unused discards from previous turns.

Some rules also allow you to rob a concealed kong (a kong declared from four tiles all drawn from the wall) - again only at the point of declaration - specifically when you are taking the tile to complete the limit-hand Thirteen Orphans (also called Thirteen Unique Wonders). This exception is sometimes specified in Japanese rule-sets, however robbing a concealed kong seems to be explicitly disallowed in Zung Jung.

https://www.mahjongtime.com/Mahjong-WSOM-Rules-5.html

It is not possible to rob a big exposed kong (a concealed pung declared as a kong using a stolen tile) because the declaration of your winning hand using the discarded tile would take priority over the other player's call to steal it.

I wouldn't worry about this too much since kong robbery is pretty rare, at least in Japanese mahjong where it only occurs in around 0.06% of winning hands. I guess it would be more likely in other rules where stealing tiles is more common.

2. I would think it's up to the players, club or tournament to decide a conversion rate between money and points for gambling.

Think about how much you're prepared to lose per match and the average values of winning hands, while also remembering that just occasionally you might be lucky/unlucky enough to witness a limit-hand worth 320 pts!

Hope this helps.

Bart

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Re: Robbing a kong and payment

Post by Nick12345 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:03 am

Let's check if I understood it correctly:

1. Already exposed triplets can be upgraded to Kong only by a drawn tile and NOT by a discarded tile. And this drawn tile can be robbed kong by a winner. Right?

2. If a triplet is not yet exposed/displayed and a discarded tile comes to hand, player can claims a big exposed kong and displays it. Right?

3. As about #2 above, as a winner has priority to get the discarded tile, so he can still get it and the other player cannot set a big exposed kong anymore? Or if a player can set a big exposed kong by a discarded tile, the winner cannot get the tile anymore? I don't understand this part, doesn't the winner have the priority to get discarded tiles in any case?

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Re: Robbing a kong and payment

Post by Barticle » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:28 pm

Yes, basically a set can never have more than one stolen tile, so you can either steal one tile to make an exposed pung then add a self-drawn tile to make an exposed kong (this is the only type of kong that can routinely be robbed) or you can have a concealed pung of self-drawn tiles and steal one tile to make an exposed kong.

Win declarations always take priority. Winning off a discarded tile trumps a pung/kong call on the same tile, even if the player called "kong" faster! Similarly a pung/kong call takes priority over a chow call. It looks like Zung Jung doesn't allow two or three players to win off the same discarded tile - if there are multiple win declarations, only the player seated closest to the discarder's right side (counter-clockwise around the table) gets the points.

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Re: Robbing a kong and payment

Post by Nick12345 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:24 pm

A clarification about the meaning of "concealed" please: If understood correctly "concealed" means all tiles of the set are drawn and NOT discarded. No matter if this is already exposed or not. In both exposed/un-exposed cases this is still "concealed" as long as all tiles are drawn?

So even in case of exposed AND concealed/all drawn triplet then upgrade by a 4th drawn tile to make it kong, winner can still rob kong it?

Correct?

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Re: Robbing a kong and payment

Post by Barticle » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:49 pm

Yes, a set is "concealed" if all tiles were drawn by the player from the wall.
The tiles are loose in the main hand.

A set is "exposed" if it was completed by using a call to steal a discarded tile from another player. The set is displayed on the table.
The tiles are locked in the set (with the exception that a small exposed kong can be robbed at the point when the fourth tile is added).

Concealed and exposed are opposites. The equivalent terms "closed" and "open" are also used.

Your hand starts as closed but if you steal a tile to complete a set, the hand becomes open.

When you make a big exposed kong by stealing a tile, you start with a pung (concealed) and it becomes a kong (exposed). You cannot rob this type of kong.

When you have a concealed pung, draw the fourth tile and declare a kong, this is a concealed kong. Zung Jung does not allow robbing.

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Re: Robbing a kong and payment

Post by Nick12345 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:58 pm

1. So "displaying" are done only when a steal happens, and if for example all pung/kung tiles are drawn, it should NOT be displayed?

2. So an exposed triplet (one tile stolen), can NOT be upgraded to kong by a discarded tile?

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Re: Robbing a kong and payment

Post by Barticle » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:10 pm

A set made by stealing a tile is always displayed (literally exposed to all players). Also when you declare a concealed kong (four self-drawn tiles) you show all four tiles and then display the set with the first and fourth tiles face-down to indicate that it's a concealed kong. Tiles can only be counted as a quad set if the kong has been declared - this is vital since the player needs to draw a supplement tile to have enough tiles to complete the rest of their hand.

Yes, you can't make an exposed pung into a kong by stealing another tile because one set cannot have two stolen tiles.

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Re: Robbing a kong and payment

Post by Nick12345 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:29 pm

1. You said: "When you make a big exposed kong by stealing a tile, you start with a pung (concealed) and it becomes a kong (exposed). You cannot rob this type of kong."

2. Also you said, winner has priority to steal a discarded tile.

So in this case, winner doesn't have priority to steal the discarded tile if previous player is stealing the discarded tile to expose a kong with concealed pung?

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Re: Robbing a kong and payment

Post by Barticle » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:37 pm

I said "Win declarations always take priority."

If one player wants a discard tile for a win and another wants it to make a kong, the winner gets the tile. The kong doesn't happen so it isn't being robbed.
Last edited by Barticle on Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Robbing a kong and payment

Post by Nick12345 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:39 pm

Thanks for your patience to answer my questions. I guess this forum has no feature to like your answers or giving you points. Thanks again.

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Re: Robbing a kong and payment

Post by Barticle » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:04 pm

I'm pretty sure there once was a system to +1 karma for a post, but that must've been before the big redesign about nine years ago...!

It's good to help new players, we were all learners once. Also these boards are relatively quiet these days so all content and any "fresh blood" is appreciated!

Just remember we mostly play Japanese "Riichi" mahjong here so other styles can be stretching our knowledge a little, but that can be good too.

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Re: Robbing a kong and payment

Post by Nick12345 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:10 pm

I guess Japanese Riichi should be a bit difficult for newbies?

Are there a mobile app or an online site to calculate points of different play types?

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Re: Robbing a kong and payment

Post by Barticle » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:16 pm

People can and do start with Japanese mahjong, but there's a lot to take in. Even with lookup tables, scoring manually is archaic and complicated - points are added, rounded then doubled several times, or otherwise capped at one of five different limits! Some combinations are invalid or score less if the hand is open. The player in the east seat scores extra. Rounds last four hands but sometimes additional hands are played with the same seat winds. Also some new players are unaware of pitfalls like a winning hand always needing a combination (one-Han minimum) or the Furiten rule also blocking some wins.

Newbies should probably start with just handling tiles, making sets and building hands, then learning the most common combinations first. Mahjong video-games calculate the scores for you but most are in Japanese, although there is a handy free online English version if you want to try it.

https://www.gamedesign.jp/flash/mahjong/mahjong_e.html

Zung Jung's creator, Alan Kwan, was quite critical of Riichi. In his boardgamegeek.com user profile he rated it 4/10 for its "overly complex rules" and he designed the Zung Jung rules to be a simplified version of mahjong that's easier to learn. It has a simple additive scoring system where each combination and bonus has a standard value and you sum the points. There's no doubling, only one limit and generally no minimum scoring requirement. The value of each pattern better represents its rarity and there are far fewer patterns compared to other additive mahjong variants like Chinese Official rules. The seat winds always rotate after every hand and there's no score bonus for east.

I don't use any apps, but there are certainly Japanese scoring apps. Additive rules should be simple enough to require only the pattern list for reference.

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Re: Robbing a kong and payment

Post by or2az » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:11 am

If you're interested, here is a very good Japanese Mahjong scoring app available on Android.
I use it all the time.
http://reachmahjong.com/en/forum/viewto ... app#p58888

The best one on IOS is the last one discussed in the thread, Japanese Mahjong calculator girl.

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