Guildford UK Mahjong Tournament Report

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hirohurl
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Guildford UK Mahjong Tournament Report

Post by hirohurl » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:18 am

Thank you Gemma for your report about the Guildford mahjong tournament. I would\'ve loved to have been there:

http://www.reachmahjong.com/home/index. ... 2&Itemid=1

And congratulations on your results (1st, 2nd, 2nd, 1st).

You were wondering about the scoring rules. I might be able to help you there! The \"bam bam\" method (I like that name - did you coin it, or is that what the British have started calling it?)... the bam bam method is described on my website here:

http://japanese-mahjong.com/3pmjpage11.html

It is so MUCH EASIER and quicker than the traditional scoring method and is used in 3-player mahjong here in Hiroshima.

All you do is count up your yaku and bonuses plus two for \"den den\" (i.e. bam bam).

I use it when playing 4-player as a quick check while the scoring \"expert\" works out the score by the traditional method, and you get roughly the same result most of the time.

Ian Fraser, the tournament organiser, has been buying mahjong gear from my site for the last three or four years. Sometimes I meet him and hand stuff over on my trips to England. And in February of this year we played both Riichi MJ and 3-Player MJ with Peter Langford using the \"bam bam\" method.

So, maybe I am the guilty party if the UK adopts an heretical approach to mahjong tournaments!

DH

Robert
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Re:Guildford UK Mahjong Tournament Report

Post by Robert » Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:38 am

I do not like the \"add 2 fan\" of the \"bam bam\" method. I am used to the method without this, at least for 5 fan and over. I have made a mnemonic \"diamond\" graphic for this, which you can see below.

I do agree with you, hirohurl, that counting fu is disagreeable. Personally, I would rather just use 1000/2000/4000/7700 or else 1000/2000/4000/8000 for fan values 1 thru 4. Image

hirohurl
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Re:Guildford UK Mahjong Tournament Report

Post by hirohurl » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:52 pm

I don\'t know the exact system they used at Guildford, but for us in Hiroshima the scoring system goes:

3 = 1
4 = 2
5 = 4
6-7 = Mangan
8-9 = Haneman
10-12 = Double Mangan
13-15 = Triple Mangan
etc...

Mcgreag
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Re:Guildford UK Mahjong Tournament Report

Post by Mcgreag » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:28 am

I don\'t see how it makes it easier (or more complicated), it\'s just a difference in wording. If you are used to the normal way just ignore the bam bam and keep your diamond or what ever you use. Or if you prefer bam bam you can use that and the modified table in a normal game, it won\'t make a difference.

As to removing mini points I definitively understand the reason but I am not sure I like it. It will for example proportionally increase the value of menzen tsumo compared to a concealed ron (it will be worth 2x ron instead of 1.5x as it is now), and it will lower the value of kans. In the normal system going from 20 to 40 or 30 to 60 mini points is the same as getting another han while in this system it\'s pointless (all of the above is only as long as you keep below limit hand value of course).

iandstanley
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Re:Guildford UK Mahjong Tournament Report

Post by iandstanley » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:10 pm

hirohurl wrote:Thank you Gemma for your report about the Guildford mahjong tournament. I would\'ve loved to have been there
Me too ... unfortunately the timing clashed with hols and I was stuck in Wales :( ... maybe I\'ll remember next time to keep the weekend free ... or at least check early enough before letting my wife book the hols)


Congrats to the Winners and Runners up and maybe I\'ll see you next year.

Organisers please keep up the good work & thanks

Rosti
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Re: Guildford UK Mahjong Tournament Report

Post by Rosti » Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:41 pm

hirohurl wrote:The \"bam bam\" method (I like that name - did you coin it, or is that what the British have started calling it?)... the bam bam method is described on my website here:

http://japanese-mahjong.com/3pmjpage11.html
I could be wrong here, but I'm fairly sure what you're describing as the "bam bam" method isn't what the UK people use.

The UK "bam bam" just refers to the fact that the UK players include the two extra han that you get from declaring ron or tsumo in their count, while European players tend not to. The actual fundamental scoring is identical. UK "bam bam" players will give the same hand the exact same score as the other European players do. The only difference is in semantics and terminology. That method you link to on your website does not give identical scores. You seem to refer to "bam bam" as a different method for calculating scores, when really it's just a different method for naming scores.

I can demonstrate with an example. If a hand has, say, 30 minipoints, tanyao and two dora, then European players would say the hand has three han. When giving the value of the hand they might say "30 with 3", meaning 30 minipoints with 3 multipliers. Which, looking it up on a European table (such as the reference ones in the EMA rules), would be worth 3900 points for a non-dealer.

A "bam bam" UK player, however, wouldn't say "30 with 3". They would count up the han, saying tanyao (1), dora (2), dora (3), and then for declaring ron two more, bam (4) bam (5). This would give their final hand to be "40 with 5". This can cause confusion, because obviously for Europeans they'd perceive this as being five yaku, which would make it a mangan hand - a significant increase from the 3900 point value. However, the UK tables are written differently, because they include the two "bam bam" han. An example of a UK scoring table would be here, where you can see that 30 minipoints with 5 han is listed as 3900 points for a non-dealer ron. That is to say, that the hand has the exact same score as the European tables, despite this "bam bam" stuff. Note that the UK tables reflect this by starting at counts of 3 han, because it's not possible to win with less than 3, as you need at least one yaku to win, and then you gain two more for winning.

It's really not that confusing. The fact is that the Europeans tend to just count up the yaku and then that's it. They don't add the extra two on because they either know the tables by heart, or look it up. Or, if they do calculate it, they add the extra two on anyway. The UK "bam bam" version reflects the actual method used to calculate scores.
Take the 30 minipoints, and double it once for each han, using the UK "bam bam" count of five han, and you arrive at 30 *2^5, which gives you a base score of 960. For a non-dealer ron this then gets multiplied by four to give 3840, which then rounds up to the final payment score of 3900. The European way of referring to the number of han in a hands doesn't take into account the extra two for winning, and therefore the number of doubles you're claiming isn't actually the number of times you really need to double the minipoints to get the base score.


Ultimately there's no meaningful difference, and the UK "bam bam" players are using the exact same way of scoring hands. It's just that they're saying different things (and personally, it's the way I prefer to say it too). It doesn't make any difference for mangan, baiman and all the other limit hands either. It's just that a mangan then needs a count of 7 han instead of 5 han, but as you're artificially adding it on just for winning, it doesn't matter.

I'd like to point out that throughout this post I've used 'han', where I might have otherwise used 'fan' or 'fu' or 'doubles' depending on what you're used to calling them.
Cambridge University Riichi Mahjong Society - anyone living in or around Cambridge welcome to attend

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